[Orks] Orkoid Biology? (figuring it out)

[CELS]

That's a very good point, Apocalypse. Orks can't (and shouldn't) have all the characteristics of Terran fungi. However, I do think it'd be nice if they had enough similar qualities that we could explain why they're referred to as such. Incorporating mycelium in their reproduction process and keeping the ork reproduction as asexual? We can always explain our contradiction of canon as Adeptus Mechanicus biologists not understanding the orks properly, but one can only go so far down that route before one has turned them into the Mecan'ticus - the incompetent scientists who believe electricity is magic.

Although if Philip's suggestion is already fluff transparent, then I apologise. The reproduction process as described on his website sounded different from what I remember from Codex: Orks (3rd edition). Going by memory though.

[Malika]

Hey CELS, maybe you could copy/paste the material of your Ork article which deals with their biology/reproduction. I do remember you wrote something about that which was partly "recycled" from the original fluff and in combination with one of the (in my humble opinion) coolest pieces of artwork Juddski as ever made!



And this picture, Im not sure, but I think CELS did this one:

[Apocalypse]

@CELS: Thats the nice part - slime moulds and myxobacteria have a lot in common with funghi. They are actually so close that slime moulds where thought to be funghi for a long time.

[Malika]

Does anybody by any chance know how long it takes for an Ork to reproduce? Day 0 being the day the Ork dies (and basically beginning the cycle) to the day that the last Orks hatch from the ground? If I remember CELS' article correctly first the Squigs would emerge, followed by the Snotlings, after which the Gretchins emerge and finally the Orks themselves. I assume that all Orks emerging would be the size of Yoofs (some a bit bigger or smaller than others). Do Orks then later on grow up to become Oddboys (some inactive gene which takes time to become active, similar to how humans mature during puberty)?

[EarthScorpion]

I'd suspect that Oddboyism is actually a phenotype shift, rather than a genotype shift; it'll emerge during either gestation or early childhood for the Ork.  If it actually had different genes, it would make the re-establishment of Orkoid "society" from a single orkoid rather difficult.  As for what causes it, I'll have to put it to a different signal given out by different Orks psychically; if the "waves" emitted by a certain type of Oddboy falls too low, there will be some in the next generation.  In addition, I'd think that the Clan differences might be explicable by that, too; if Evil Sunz produce less of the "Mek" wave, they'll actually produce more Meks per Ork.

[Malika]

But if we follow the fluff of GorkaMorka however, we see that this is genetic. Due to the crash of their Space Hulk the Orks got radiated/warped slightly which resulted with the rise of more and smarter Meks or something along those lines. Perhaps that could be some sort of natural defence mechanism in which the Orks in need for more technology insert more "Mek genes" into their spores or something along those lines. They wouldn't control this consciously and it would be very instinctive. 

[surloc]

I'd favor a more solid biological explanation.  In many fish sex is determined the pheromones of other fish.  Too many males, and the fish develop as female, or even change sex.  Among social insects castes develop in response to pheromones and the environment. In all these case they have the same genetic make up.  Also remember than the fluff seems to claim that the old ones created the orks.  I really see ork more like this:

0)Ork dies, or just sheds spores.
1)Fungus grows.  Once the fungus reaches a critical mass of pheromones Squigs are produced.
2)As the population of Squigs increases snotlings are born followed by Gretchin/Grots.
3)Once Gretchin/Grots population builds Orks are produced.
4)Oddboys come about once the Ork population reaches certain levels. It's possible that certain tribes genetically produce more of certain odd boys.  On the other hand Ork could put out pheromones based on need.  And certain tribe/clans want/need more of certain oddboys.

[Malika]

I like the pheromone idea, but wouldn't this mean that it would take a generation for there to be oddboys? I mean, Orks release pheromones as to show the need for specific Oddboys, this affects the spores then, but it would mean that the next generation would have these Oddboys, not the current generation right?

By the way, how many Orkoids can a single Ork spawn? As in how many spores can an Ork release and how many of these spores actually grow up to become fully awake lifeforms (everything from Squigs to Orks to Gargantuan Squiggoths)?

Oh yeah...welcome aboard surloc! How did you find out about this project?

[Philip S]

Lots of questions!

@Philip: Instead of two DNA "strands" I could imagine an eukaryot with two nuclei (cell  core - that part of a cell that contains the chromosomes) - one for the dauer stage (slime mould, whatsoever) and one for the humanoid stage. The latter one would be significantly larger.  At any given time only one nucleus would be active. The regulation could be done by signaling substances that are expressed due to environmental factors.

Could such a dual nuclei eukaryot be powered by many shared organelle, like mitochondria and Chloroplasts (and Golgi apparatus)? Basically everything all in one?

Here various part become active as needed, perhaps the cells near the skin power up Chloroplasts yet deep in the body they are dormant, but if wounded and exposed to light and air that changes? That they always have the option to go 'slime mould'.

This would be based on inter-cell communication to affect which parts of the cell are active and inactive, much like the 'do not commit suicide' interaction (what's that called?) but instead of dying, a cell cut off from the body reverts to slime mould (not a spore fruiting body when freshly cut, but rapidly changes over, and then can produce fruiting bodies?).

Any other thoughts on this that just popped into your mind?

Philip

[Lanrak]

Hi all.
I am not  a micro biologist so slime mould, reacting at the molecular level as best explained by the experts fine by me.

Also, pheromones conterolling the number /type of basic Orkiod creature in a particular area makes sense.(The squig to non squig ratio.)

However I have some thoughts on Orkoid development.

IF Squig life forms can vary from Buzzer Squig size.(Large angry bee)To gigantic squiggoth .(Wolly Mammoth size.)

What if Snots Grots and Orks are all the same basic genus.
And all the squig life forms are the other .
Just two basic genetic codes.Squigs emerge first , then the Ork.

If resources are limited then squigs and Ork s  keep  to a small  sise .
Limited  food ,and hostile environs mean shelter is a premium , so small size is an advantage.This results in the smaller strains of squig and snotlings.

Personaly I think snotlings have more 'mob mentality' than the more individual thinking Grots.
Rather like Ork boys  have more mob mentality , than the individual  Odd boys.

 IF stimulated by 'shiney stuff', the 'grot' mentality is awakened amonst some of the snotling clan.
Grots start plannin' and thinkin' on how to get more food, more shiney stuff.
Better fed, they grow bigger than thier 'snotling slaves.'

If enough resorces , and a sutable climate for expansion . More and more orkoid life forms emerge, the snotlings start competing , The grots order them to fight on thier behalf perhaps.
As they fight they amass musculature and they grow in stature.
To the point where the  'original snotlings' get bigger than the grots,who were ordring them about.
The grots then have to try to compete physicaly with the 'emergant orks.'To try to keep them  in line.
The sucsessful grots grow up to be Odd Boys.
(Possibly why they have a strong affinity with squigs snotlings grots , OR mending , OR knowing how 'orks werk.')

So rather than several seperate strains of Orkoid genus,
Snotlings , Grots , Orks .
Perhaps orkiod society is just emeregent, transitional and terminal levels of development.

Viewed at any particular moment in time ther appears to be several seperate type of orkoid.
Rather than various level of maturity/diversity of growth.

Just some thoughts.

Feel free to ignore .

TTFN
Lanrak. 

[Warboss Waaazag]

I really like this explanation. It is completely divergent from the GW standard (which has always been from the ignorant  Imperial standpoint anyway) and I think describes the society and development of Orks in a realistic and believable way. Just my two teef, as an avid Ork player myself.

[Lanrak]

Hi.
I just wanted to explore a method where the orks to have the ability to learn through experiance , rather than have some 'genetic codeing ' dictating  'imprinted knowledge'.
This makes it more plausable for them to fuly understand  physics and biology etc IMO.
(Not a dumb as the imperuim think!)

If we assume that massive amounts of chemicals like 'adrenaline or testosterone types ' are released in orkoid life forms during times of stress/fighting. This could trigger mainly  physical growth in most orkoid life forms.
But perhaps in some it triggers mental stimulation as well?



 

[Malika]

Do note that the oddboys are still caused by a genetic factor. I like the idea that there still remains this debate of nature vs. nurture. It would be that there are Orks who have the genes which make them an Oddboy, however not all of those Orks who possess that gene have it awake, in many cases it could be dormant. When it does wake up though it needs to be stimulated, similar to how you "train" your brain to function in society (babies playing with cubes and such and later on going to the zoo, basically training in categorising, later on learning to read and write, keep on training the brain) the Oddboy would have to train himself to become more capable. So an Ork could be a MekBoy, but if he is not learning he will never become skilled. Perhaps this knowledge could even be genetic but it has to be waken up by training. So it indeed is nature, but it needs nurture to use it.

[Lanrak]

Hi.
I agree that genitics give an individual Orkoid life form more POTENTIAL to perform a particular function in Orkoid society.
But the Imperuim view that all Orkiod technical knowledge is geneticaly incoded. Infers it is very limited.
A fixed quotient that is not expanded or improved upon.

I prerfer to belive  the most prolific race in the universe to be adaptable, by  experiancing ,by reacting , by learning .
As a fully formed and developed race would.

Eg Mek boys arent born with and limited knowledge how to mend stuff.
But are born as snotlings, inspired by low level mechanical things,gain 'power and respect' and grow into mechanicaly minded grots.(Grot oilers if dominant mek boys already  in place.) .

As most Odd boys appear to be able to have grot assistance.Perhaps the grots are the apprentices?Todays grot Oiler or Orderly are the next generations of Oddboys.(IF they survive that long...)

If Ork boys grow into Nobs then Warlords , bigger size and better at thier primary function, given the right circumstances.

Why not extend this trait to other orkiod life forms and functions?

Just a thought .
Lanrak.

Just trying to add to the depth of Orkoid society .

Not re writing the GW background , just trying a different interpritation of the known facts, hopefully!



 

[Malika]

If I get this right you are saying that a Snotling can grow up to become a Grot which can again grow up to become an Ork? Personally I'm not too fond of that idea. I think that each species of the Orkoid is potentially capable of growing an entire warband, meaning that the spores released by any kind of Orkoid (be it snotling, grot, ork or perhaps even Squig) are capable of creating the Orkoid biosphere. So Snotlings release spores, those spores can become all species of Orkoid.

EDIT: Here is the "article" on Ork biology according to the Lexicanum website. I know we have to take that site with a pinch (or even several pinches) of salt but there is some more info on the Ork anatomy. They tend to have fewer organs than a human, a multichambered stomach which can digest all sorts of foods (would this be similar to the multiple stomach thing animals such as cows have?), I'm not really getting the whole renal system thing and this aspect:

This combined with a body-cavity filling 'fungal soup' (which has the effect of replacing the biochemical organs (liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas etc.)) gives the Orks an intensely strong internal system, even though it is quite basic in design.

Does this mean that this fungal soup absorbs the needed nutrients and spreads them through the body like blood or is this fungal soup something that is something that moves through some sort of veins of their own like blood, but instead of spreading oxygen and other nutrients it basically takes away all the "waste material" from an Orkoid's body? If so it would explain the very dark blood, the green blood could come from copper which is used to transport oxygen and such while the so called dark purple/black blood we might have seen from older artwork could very well by this "fungal soup" which transports all the waste material. So perhaps instead of normal excrements as seen amongst humans (urine and feces) Orks might simply release this "fungal soup" from their bodies, perhaps even through their pores or sweat it out of their system?

The article further mentions photosynthesis which in itself is cool for Orks, but first of all I didn't know fungi was photosynthetic and then the article also mentions that the green blood is proof for this...how is that so?