[Xenos] The Periophians

[The_Glyphstone]

Excellent - a great deal of this is still copy-pasted from my much older drafts as I systematically re-write each section - some of it hasn't been touched in 3+ years. Be as hard as you want on the technical inaccuracies/oddities/just plain stupid ideas, it'll save me a lot of time in figuring out what needs to be gotten rid of. For example, Section 3 is mostly out of date now, with revisions/expansions further down in the thread. Section 4 should be ignored entirely, the newest imagining of the Periophians has religion being out of place for them, so I'm stripping the concept completely.

Oh, and thanks for the interest - I need every bit of help I can get...wonder if Destacado plans on showing up any time soon. He was one of the major formative forces in the early days, after all.

[Destecado]

Oh, and thanks for the interest - I need every bit of help I can get...wonder if Destacado plans on showing up any time soon. He was one of the major formative forces in the early days, after all.

I can be summoned by looking into a mirror and speaking my name five times.   

I need to read through the article, but comments from a recent post (questioning how a fish can drown) did make me think of a fish species that you may wish to check out.   Climbing Perch, also known as the Climbing Gourami is named for it's ability to "climb" out of the water and 'walk" between sources of water. 

In addition to the fleshy gills that all bony fishes have for breathing in water, the gills of the Climbing perch have a special labyrinth organ which enables it to breathe air. The gills of the Climbing perch are not as efficient as those of other bony fishes, so it has to rise to the surface of the water every half hour or so to gulp air.  If a climbing perch is held underwater it can actually drown, but its ability to breathe air enables it to live in water that contains little oxygen.  If there is sufficient humidity to keep it's gills wet, it can survive out of water for several days at a time.  The stiff spines near its gills are what give the walking perch the ability to climb out and ‘walk’ from one body of water to another.

There is a variety of catfish with a similar capacity.   They are a nuisance for aquaculture farms in Florida.  Their ability to  "walk" to the farms from nearby bodies of water has required the erecting of protective fencing around the aquaculture ponds.   The reason I bring up catfish, is because you may want to look at adapting the catfish's sense for the Periophians.

Exploring the Catfish Sense

The ability of such fish to survive in oxygen deprived waters allows them to better adapt to their environments.   Their wide range of senses also give them an advantage in terms of survival. 

Intelligent life could eventually have evolved on the planet, but its rise was greatly accelerated by a freak celestial accident. A large comet, was snared by the local sun’s gravity and its path altered. The comet’s new path put it on a collision course with one of the planet’s two moons, and the bodies impacted with catastrophic results. The comet was vaporized, and the moon pulverized into hundreds of fragments. <abridged>

Wow, that’s a lot to take in.  As you say, it was written some time ago, so I will try to be gentle with my comments.  The assertion that the evolution of intelligence was spurred by what amounts to a mass extinction is a bit tenuous.  I would offer that the extinction may have removed predators or competition that opened up the opportunities for other species, but in and of itself it did not make these organisms smarter.   

The size of the comet or the speed at which it was traveling to pulverize the moon would have been immense, especially given the size of the moon.   If I’ve read it right, each moon is a quarter the size of the planet. From you’re write-up, the moons are described as “totaling nearly a half of their parent’s mass”.  Even with a direct hit, the size of the object hitting the moon would have to be huge to break up into pieces like that…or moon’s structure might have been compromised prior to the impact.   The stresses of the tidal forces exerted by the planetary system might have contributed to its breakup.  The number of fragments when the moon actually breaks up may also need to be increased.  Several hundred from an object that was even the size of our moon, would be catastrophic if they hit the surface. 

An impact of one of these larger chunks, which might be miles across and it’s game over.  You also run into the issue of it not being a single meteor strike or even a single meteor shower.   If those objects are still up there, you can expect them to be a continuing problem.   The surviving moon is also likely to be peppered by a large number of asteroids.   

Meteorites plunged into the oceans, causing massive tidal waves that caused entire seas to relocate over a distance of miles. Numerous fish and water plants gasped out the end of their life in the open air, and others drowned in the sudden deluge of moisture.

Wouldn’t the creatures in the ocean be carried along with the waves as they swept across the land?   The is also the fact that the waters would most likely recede back towards their original position, unless there was some land mass in their way, which prevented it.  You may want to look at the Black Sea Deluge Theory  for some inspiration.   Now, what wasn’t drowned or displaced in this first impact, may have died later on due to toxicity in the water.   Saltwater displaced into water basins, which previously held fresh water could lead to a decrease in salinity, which the organisms contained within might not be able to adapt to quickly enough.   What I am posting here might not apply, since you say that most of the planet was water…although you then add that it was fertile and lush, which generally are adjectives to describe land…unless you are referring to lush sea grasses…
If it was a water hit, rather than hitting dry land,   You probably are going to have a large amount of water converted to steam.  Organisms probably won’t have a chance to drown in the deluge.  They would either be par cooked or blown away by the resulting shock wave.   The tidal wave, due to the denser medium (water) would follow afterwards, to sweep away, whatever remained.   Eventually, this moisture would condense and probably fallback to earth.  The question of course, becomes where.  With the weather patterns changed, would it fall back on the previous location of the oceans or on the newly formed oceans?

Then there is the amount of earth that was moved by the water.   The abrupt movement of such a large amount of water will definitely displace land.  A real world example of this is how the coastlines of the countries affected by the Indian Ocean tsunami were altered by the waves.   Would this turn over rich soil and what would it mean to future growth.   This brings us to sea grasses and land vegetation.   Exposed sea grasses would probably die out, but this may enrich the ground underneath with rich nutrients, that could provide a fertile bed for new growth.  Trees and land based plant life would most likely rot under the water.   This rotting process would give of CO2 and other chemicals.   This has the potential to make the new oceans dead waters or at least oxygen depleted.   Again, I recommend you look at the Black Sea and the dead zone that exists below a certain depth (since the waters of the sea do not mix). 

Countless species were rendered extinct, and others brought to the brink. But just as chaotic as the moon’s destruction was the void it left behind. Without the gravity of the second moon, the tides could not reach the heights they once attained, transforming the planet from a spread of alternating swamps/shallow seas and floodplains, to a hostile collage of oceans, sun-baked wasteland, and the thin strips of surviving floodplains that separated them. Thus the ecology of the planet was forever changed, from a lush and peaceful swamp world to a harsh, unforgiving land where the necessity of survival in two contradictory environments tested the limits of adaptation. Those species that survived the initial cataclysm evolved rapidly, or died out in the face of those that did.

I think you are placing too much emphasis on the tides and not taking into account weather patterns.  The way you are describing you’re planet, there are really no intervening mountain ranges.  The rains should therefore and weather pattern should prevent such dry places…unless you are stating that the planet has become drier do to loss of moisture.   This could either be due to loss of moisture from the impact.  Ionized atoms of hydrogen and oxygen escaped the atmosphere.   Global warming can also lead to a drop in moisture (again giving enough energy to the lighter elements, to escape the atmosphere).   The decrease in moisture does not have to be caused by atmospheric outgassing.   An ice age can also change the availability of moisture…tying it up in ice.   


I'll read through the rest of the article and comment later.

[The_Glyphstone]

Tear it apart. That section is definitely undergoing a total rewrite...as you can see, I didn't know a whole lot about world-altering cataclysms at 14.

Interesting articles, I'll have to give them a deep look at some point - I'm currently using the common mudskipper as my "inspiration fish", but there's no reason why I can't blend features from various real-life fish for the proto-Periophians. The article on catfish senses is particularly interesting...the current draft of Periophians have no sense of smell due to the lack of a nose - apparently that's not a requirement.

[hivetrygon]

Can you give me a basic overall breakdown of these aquatic alien? I get the gist of it but was not sure how far you were wanting to go. I honestly find them more interesting as a barbarian like race capable of being land or air breathers with very limited mobile ability. I also like the idea of them having advanced mental problem solving ability which conflicts with their limited physcial structure.

I could see us pushing them into a species that would have far superior intellect yet sub par pyhsical bodies which use cunning and traps for warfare. I don't know if your into that but many crazy deep sea fish come to my mind with some limited arms/fins and such.

[The_Glyphstone]

Can you give me a basic overall breakdown of these aquatic alien? I get the gist of it but was not sure how far you were wanting to go. I honestly find them more interesting as a barbarian like race capable of being land or air breathers with very limited mobile ability. I also like the idea of them having advanced mental problem solving ability which conflicts with their limited physcial structure.

I could see us pushing them into a species that would have far superior intellect yet sub par pyhsical bodies which use cunning and traps for warfare. I don't know if your into that but many crazy deep sea fish come to my mind with some limited arms/fins and such.

Not at all, they're not barbarians in the least..I'll try to give you a nutshell summary of the Periophians:

They grew/evolved out of a species of amphibious fish with a shark or catfish-like ability to sense the electrical impulses generated by neurons firing - basically, the ability to feel the presence of thinking minds nearby. They're particularly sensitive to their own thought impulses and those of other Periophians, to a degree where they can feel each other's emotions at close range, and have what basically amounts to telepathy at skin-contact range. Being unable to avoid this, they sort of skipped over the 'slaughter each other mercilessly for a long time' stage of cultural development, as they found it extremely difficult to fight each other without adverse side effects.

I keep trying to summarize their psychological attitude, but since that's the part of their document currently under reconstruction,i keep failing. Bluntly - they're the closest thing the GWverse would have to pacifists; very non-aggressive by nature, much more prone to run away than fight, and even their actual battle tactics would be summarized as extremely detailed fighting retreats. They have secret outposts and colonies spread all through the galaxy - sparsely, but carefully located for the best coverage - and are constantly studying the other races of the galaxy and trying to figure out what prevents them from accepting what the Periophians think is obvious - it's wrong to indiscriminately kill everyone else without them ever having shown you aggression first.

On their physical abilities, you're not far off the mark. They are (currently) roughly humanoid, but their skeletal and muscle structure are still much more suited for living underwater as opposed to underground - they have to wear a sort of combination power armor/wetsuit for extended time periods on the surface. Out of suit, even a Tau should be capable of going hand-to-hand with a Periophian, and most humans would stand an excellent chance of success. They use primarily sonic-based and projectile weaponry, along with robotic assistance (they have no AI, viewing it as a perversion of life).

The niche I'm aiming them at is a sort of secretive, hidden semi-threat. They're all over the place, but take great pains to avoid getting into conflicts - primarily because they'd be squashed like bugs by anyone who got the chance, being very technologically advanced but possessing an extremely small and spread-out military capacity.

Am I getting anything coherent across?

[hivetrygon]

I get your idea now. I am just slightly unsure of the techno-advanced thing. I picture them as super intelligent now, and with the ability to "feel" things around them to a degree I think you might want to change direction slightly. This si your "baby" so forgive me, but this is how I feel would be a good progression.

"make them fishlike with some very limited crawling out of water and hand manipulation. I picture them as being very sensitive and able to avoid detection. They are everywhere but no one has even seen them, like giant squids on earth. They are so far ahead of us approaching we have no trace of them.

Attacks would come from us destroying their limited cities and such we find around. The places are found and destroyed in though of ancient locations but are not. The alien then attack back with devious traps and ambush like teqchniques leaving little sign of their existance.

Anyway, might be a total waste of time but seems interesting to me. I just can't picture something with limited pyshical ability creating power armor if that makes any sence to you. Mechanical things take very advanced equipment, things that would be hard pressed underwater in a uncontrolled enviroment.

[The_Glyphstone]

Well, the thing is that they aren't complete water-dwellers - look at real-world fish like mudskippers and those climbing perch Destacado linked. The precursor fish I imagine them developing from are similar to those, but their home planet is a sort of ecodisaster after having one of its two moons smashed to hell by something, transforming it from a water world into a more patchwork type planet where the single surviving moon was now powerful enough to move entire seas on a semi-regular basis. They evolved more efficient overland movement and physical capability so they could migrate from sea to shining sea, but they're still just generally more at home in the water. Their 'armor' wouldn't really be power armor like the Space Marines/Sisters of Battle wear, closer to a sort of hydraulically powered wetsuit capable of taking the pressure that would otherwise go onto their rather fragile skeletal structure.

I'm also trying not to make them TOO technologically advanced, for fear of walking into Mary Sue territory, if it's possible to have an entire species of Mary Sues. The Eldar, and the Tau to an extent, are the 'high tech'" races, and it would feel hacked-on to have my 'k00l new ali3ns" have even better technology than them for no good reason other than to make them special. At the same time, I've kept them humanoid for now partially out of nostalgia for their roots, partly from laziness, and partly because I'm trying very hard to stay away from Our Aliens Are Different - everything else in the GWverse is bipedal/humanoid in structure, except for the Tyranids. I'm not totally resistant to them being nonhumanoid, but it's hard for me to justify for any reason other than, again, just breaking the mold 'because'.

[hivetrygon]

I'm feeling much more comfortable with that last explanation. So by power suit your meaning more of lets say hydrolic suit. Which being water dwellers from the begining would be very possible IMO. We are used to oils in hydrolics but water or any fluid would work. I'm starting to get an idea here but it's going to take some time to get a good concept designed. 

[The_Glyphstone]

Yes - they would actually be quite lightly armored relative to average "power armor", since that would just be more weight to haul around. Combat variants would probably have built-in protection, but I'm also considering the use of low-grade personal force fields to serve as a substitute for personal armor.

Like i said in the other thread, I still only have a vague idea of what they'd look like to begin with, so there's no real rush.

[Kage2020]

Hmmmn... I think that hivetrygon raises a valid point about technological development, though.  Overall I think that this has been one of my sticking points about "accepting" the Atlanteans/Periophians.  (I'm still the ultimate "da boss.")  Is it my lack of imagination that leads to having trouble believing in the development of their technologies, or the "hand waving" explanation?

In short, I feel that the Periophians need some work.  They're not Stage 1 release material at the moment.  Let us try and get them ready for a later stage release, but we do need to explain away some of the wrinkles.

Kage

[The_Glyphstone]

They're not even Stage 0.5 at this point. Heck, I'm still wrestling with justifying how they have any miltary forces at all in the face of their pseudo-pacifism. I haven't even begun chewing on the desperately needed rewrites of - well - just about everything except Culture, and that's only because it's the section I am currently rewriting. It'll be a while before I feel comfortable enough with my work to release it to the light of day again.

The general theme I intend to follow on the tech note is, in a nutshell "stuff they invented/discovered to make it easier to survive", developing into "stuff they thought of and found a way to make work". I think it will look/sound a lot better with details, instead of just "they invented X' and 'they invented Y' without explaining how or why those things came about. Maybe handwaving, but this time the hand will be painted and holding a bunch of July 4th sparklers.

Are there any specific issues that are giving you problems, besides the lack of coherent detail on their technology? The attitude I assumed the Eldar would take towards them, for instance?

[Malika]

They evolved more efficient overland movement and physical capability so they could migrate from sea to shining sea, but they're still just generally more at home in the water. Their 'armor' wouldn't really be power armor like the Space Marines/Sisters of Battle wear, closer to a sort of hydraulically powered wetsuit capable of taking the pressure that would otherwise go onto their rather fragile skeletal structure.

So they create this technology on the surface, but wouldn't they first need that technology to even get out of the water? Kind of the chicken and the egg debate here I think?

Also, how are they able to have outposts throughout the galaxy? They would need to have some very advanced space travelling technology and also some advanced defences to keep forces such as the Imperium or Orks at bay. With simply calculated Warp jumps this would simply not be possible because the distances are too great. The Tau are currently having a similar problem as in that they cannot expand that much further without the distances becoming too great. The Tau need to come up with a means of travelling fast and safe in order to expand beyond their current borders. The Periophians are no exception in this, sure they have watchstations, but how did they get there and how are they reached? I would seriously limit this by keeping them in a certain sector (or sectors).

[Dazo]

Hey glyph just had a glance at your stuff and couldnt help think it might be an idea to break it up into more manageable  chunks as at the moment it a rather scary wall of text that I ran straight into and bounced of with a bloody nose

[Destecado]

Tangent drive engaged…

Ok, the following is a collection of random connections that I made when considering the evolution and technology of the Periophians….Many Anabantoidei / Labyrinth Fishes (possessing a labyrinth organ) build structures called bubble nests.   These nests can be floating masses of bubbles or ones that have been attached to the bottom of a body of water.  They are blown with an oral secretion, saliva bubbles, but can also include aquatic plant matter.   The nests are meant as hatcheries.

Building a nest from saliva made me think of paper wasps, which made me begin to consider the possibility of the Periophians being some sort of hive mind or gestalt.   Perhaps it could be tied into the sympathetic, Vulcan mind-meldy nature of their skin contact.    Glyph, have you given any thought to the interaction of the proto-Periophians with other members of their species.  Arethey territorial or do they hunt or travel in schools.   Schooling fish can still be predatory.   I think we need to address this before we can really discuss evolution.

Back to the bubble nests.   Instead of being hatcheries for young, what about the nests being used as actual nests.   Trapping the air in bubbles and securing them to the bottom gives the Periophians the ability to remain submerged longer…not having to go to the surface to replenish their air supply.  Another thought would be to make them more like spiders in their hunting.   Maybe the bubble structures are more like webs, which they use to catch fish which accidentally swim through them.   

Perhaps there are toxins in their saliva which can stun the fish who swim through their bubble structures…like certain poison fishing techniques practiced in the real world.   Hmm…this could also be a defense mechanism or weapon used out of the water.   Certain species of labyrinth fish have the ability to shoot a stream of water, similar to those employed by the archer fish.   

If food is scarce in the water, this could open up other possibilities for feeding.  The toxins might come in handy here as well, to stun anything on the wing.  Or, if a predator is thinking of attacking, while they are moving across land, it could be used to scare them off, while the Periophinas make it to safety.   The land variant may have developed out of keeping a quantity of water in their mouth, which they could release during the crossing as a means of keeping their gills and labyrinth organ wet. 


The bubbles could be the basis for their technology.   It starts off as simple habitation or webs, but develops into a way to interact with the land above the waves…bubble built up over the gills to keep them moist, large scale structures for communal living under the water...maybe even some day, something akin to “rover” from the television series, the  prisoner.   

[The_Glyphstone]

@Dazo:
Don't worry - my rewrite will be in much more bit-size pieces, I had the same reaction myself re-reading it.

So they create this technology on the surface, but wouldn't they first need that technology to even get out of the water? Kind of the chicken and the egg debate here I think?

Also, how are they able to have outposts throughout the galaxy? They would need to have some very advanced space travelling technology and also some advanced defences to keep forces such as the Imperium or Orks at bay. With simply calculated Warp jumps this would simply not be possible because the distances are too great. The Tau are currently having a similar problem as in that they cannot expand that much further without the distances becoming too great. The Tau need to come up with a means of travelling fast and safe in order to expand beyond their current borders. The Periophians are no exception in this, sure they have watchstations, but how did they get there and how are they reached? I would seriously limit this by keeping them in a certain sector (or sectors).

@Malika
No, because they were already on the surface. I've got to do a little bit of research of the mechanics of tidal forces, but if possible, I'm going to find a way for the remaining moon to be powerful enough to shift the actual position of most water bodies. Their technology wasn't developed to get out of the water, it was developed to ease the transitions between water and land that they were already forced to engage in, as well as make that time spent above water easier.
@General Discussion

For the warp travel...that's another issue I really do need to address. If there's not other option besides handwaving, I will have to cut down on their rather prolific spread. But I'm still trying to hold on to their image of sneaky critters who are watching everywhere, but don't have the muscle to do anything about what they see. I’m left with two real options:
A)   Cut their “network’ down to a Tau-sized spread.
B)   Figure out a way for them to travel faster/farther in the warp.

Option A is the easier route, and the quickest way to appease ‘Da Boss’. But I don’t really like it, because not only does it divert from the original image I had of them (not always a bad thing), it makes them effectively carbon copies of the Tau with some telepathy glued on – they already share the physical fragility, reliance on technology over brute force, and a non-GRIMDARK attitude; too many similarities for my liking. So I don’t want to give up on option B just yet – the trick is finding something that does the job I need it to without too much handwaving.

It was brought up that the Imperium can travel through the warp the way they do because of their Navigators, who possess the unique psychic mutation that allows them to see warp currents and steer through them with the aid of the Astronomicon. This is somehow explained as a lost mystery of the Golden Age of Technology that can’t be replicated in ‘modern’ 40K – but that smells just as much of handwaving to me. No other race in the GWverse needs the Navigator-like ability…Eldar have the Webway; Necrons travel FTL; Tau aren’t psychic; Orks don’t even try to steer; Chaos is ‘at home’ in the Warp (bleh, the Warp shouldn’t play favorites, it’s not sentient on its own). In the absence of another method, what’s stopping the Periophians from developing psychic abilities similar to the talents of the Navigators? They are technically psykers, though very specialized ones…I don’t see any reason why warp navigation should be a psychic talent exclusive to human genegineers from tens of thousands of years ago…it may be impossible for the Imperium to replicate artificially, but the basic concept behind it isn’t that obscure. So if the Periophians train certain of their Wave-Seers to specialize in traversing warp currents, they’ve got half of the problem solved.

The other half is the Astronomicon, and that’s a much bigger sticking point. Its power is generated by sacrificing ships full of immature psykers, and directed by the God-Emperor of Mankind. As I lack a God-Emperor of Periophiankind, I can’t just have another Astronomicon – but I have another idea. It’s based in the concept that the Periophians, for the most part, lack the instinctive fear of interaction with the warp that humanity and the Eldar have – humans because every tap into the warp is a potential demonic attack, and the Eldar because it attracts Slaanesh’s attention. But the Periophians have the ‘safety net’ of sorts created by their collective warp presence that shields them from most demonic threats, so it would make sense that they don’t take the dangers presented by prolonged contact with the Immaterium as seriously as other races do. A Periophian seer could scry into the warp, examining ‘local’ currents and passing on the information to colleagues. With enough of these Warp-Scryers spread out across the galaxy and located properly, it could create an effect somewhat similar to the Astronomicon in a sort of network form. This works quite nicely with the way their network of watchposts is set up – each one would have to be colonized within the “scanning range” of an existing Scryer, giving a natural progression for where they put their colonies instead of just all over the place.

Of course , this is still quite different from the Astronomicon, because it wouldn’t be constantly functioning everywhere. To use another hated naval analogy, if you envision the Astronomicon as a lighthouse beacon emanating from Terra and always online, the Periophian scryer network would be the equivalent of thousands of passive sonar emitters on the ocean floor. For the most part, they are ‘shut off’, but when queried by a passing ship, they activate and fire off a pulse that reveals the surrounding water. Similarly, a Scryer would peer into the warp long enough to get a picture of how the warp currents within his range are currently behaving, and the Navigator-analogue onboard the ship (let’s call them Warp-Captains) would take it from there until the ship got into range of the next Scryer. The result would be a sort of leapfrogging maneuver. And now that I think of it, it fills another potential plot hole – the Periophians have survived for so long living under the Imperium’s nose because they’re the only other race in the galaxy who can travel through the warp as fast as human ships do because of their Warp-Captains.

Whadda ya think? Have I covered my ass bases enough? I tried my best to avoid making it just a new form of warp travel – as mentioned, I can’t think of any real reason why the abilities of the Navigator Gene should be completely impossible to copy, and the really unique factor of the Astronomicon is its power and range moreso than what it actually does, leaving the possibility for an imitation cobbled together from lots of much weaker “transmitters”.

@Destacado
The proto-Periophians were definitely intended to be a schooling fish. It provides a semi-logical framework for why they developed the abilities of the soul-heart, and another advantage for them to become the predominant species after The Disaster™.

As for being a gestalt/hive mind, I’ve already incorporated that to a smaller degree in how they are represented in the warp, their ‘collective presence’. All the Periophians within a given physical spread appear to be one massive mind if viewed in the warp, a side effect of their electroreceptiveness/mind-melding (gotta avoid that term, especially with the new emphasis I’m giving them on suppressing their emotions…Vulcan clones are as bad as Tau clones to a degree).

Very intriguing ideas on those bubble nests…my mental images had them living in sealed domes of sorts – bubbles are almost the same, a bit cooler, and apparently have a nice real-world analogy to base them off of. I don’t know about the venomous saliva yet – it’s interesting, but their hunting techniques are rather low on the list of Issues I still have to work out. The more I think about it, the more I like it – a mouthful of water mixed with said toxic saliva would make a nice sort of poisonous spit, but we can come back to that later.