Men of Stone

[Destecado]

I've been away from the project for a quite a while, but I've found myself getting interested in 40k once again.   One of the areas of  40k that always interested me was the backstory of the fluff.   Of particular interest was the concept of the First "galactic" human empire created by the stone men.   There have been some false starts previously on trying to decipher who or what this group or race might have been.   I had an ephiphany while watching the History Channel of all things.   

The program dealt with various conspiracy theories.  What caught my attention were the various conspiracies which suround the Freemasons...especially one dealing with the establishment of the New World Order.   I got to thinking...the masons had their origins (actual or mythical) and symbolism tied to stone masons.   The Square and Compasses, which are tools of stone masons (architects) comprise the symbol of the freemasons.  It could be that Men of Stone or Stone Men was a metaphorical way or slang for those who belonged to this new world order, which forged the first galactic empire.   The very structure of the organization also seems a perfect fit for the 40k universe.   

...so what are people's thoughts?.  Could I be on to something here or should I just not stay up so late at night watching the history channel? 

[Kage2020]

To be honest, I would love some of the old conspiracy theories coming into 40k, which is one of the reasons that I've posted threads on other boards about "secret societies," and even adding something of the old flavour of the Ordo Malleus back to the Inquisition...

Kage

[CELS]

Bah, damned computer. My original reply to this was lost, so I'll make this short.

Basically, I think this has a lot of potential. Our newest member, Luddite, asked if we ever had mini-projects in the ASP where a bunch of members focus on a single area or try to answer one of the big unanswered questions of 40k. Well, I think it would be cool to answer the unanswered question about the Age of Technology, namely- who were the Stone Men, the Iron Men and the Golden Men?

I've already posted my ideas for the Iron Men, which need to be developed. The Golden Men are very much a mystery, we know almost nothing about them. I think Destecado had a great idea for the Stone Men, because from what I know of the Masons, one can easily see how such a group would evolve to match that description, given a few millennia. And of course, there's the conspiracy theories that have the Masons in a position of power already now.

So yeah, I'd be happy to explore this, but I think it would be cool, as a mini-project, to look at the whole human civilisation in the Age of Technology. Hit a flock of birds with one stone. Destecado's Stone Men ideas, my Iron Men ideas, possibly look into the origin of the Mezzan, maybe combine our ideas with Kage's effort of creating a pre-Imperial ship (remembering that Navigated interstellar travel only just began towards the end of the Age of Technology).... sounds promising.

[Luddite]

Well, i've posted on boards about the opposite chronology actually...'what will the Imperium be like 1000 years from its current time?'  Mostly inspired i might add, by an Abnetts excellent work on the Durham Red character.

But this idea - the 'Imperium' pre-heresy is equally interesting...although more challenging since the developments have to converge on the present and are therefore inherently constricted....(or focussed?)

My initial reaction to Gold / Stone / Iron men and what they were is essentially a blank stare...a guppy fish impression...

But CELS this sounds like an interesting challenge.  I'll have a think about it a bit.

I think open Masonic involvement as 'Stonemen' seems unlikely to me.  I think the 'secret society' thing places them very much in their current 'power behind the throne' role (allegedly).

Marxist ideological interpretation of a capitalist technocracy might be a possible..

Gold men = Bourgeoisie - the masters, industrialists, merchants, rulers and owners

Stone men = Petty Bourgeois - the artisans, craftsmen, middling sort, traders

Iron men =  Proletariat - the workers

Not sure where that leaves the Lumpenproletariat  - criminals, scum, beggars, social fotsam & jetsom

Set that within a secular (obviously Marxism was secular too) proto-Onmissiah society where technology, expansion and discorvery are vital...

Hmmm...

[CELS]

Well, the whole future of the Imperium or "41K" is something that I believe has been done to death on several forums. Warseer comes to mind, for one. The problem with such a project is that you have too many possibilities, so it's extremely hard to make people come to agreement. Even if you do find a bunch of people who are in agreement, chances are high that the majority of 40k fans will hate what they came up with. I won't say that the ASP shouldn't concern itself with the future of the Warhammer 40,000 setting, but I do not see myself participating in it, at any rate.

But yes, as you say, the wonderful thing about the pre-Imperium setting is precesily the lack of options, because it makes it easier for us to come to agreement. We don't know too much about the Age of Technology, but the Journal of Keeper Cripias does give us a rough description that I suppose will be the foundation of our efforts... if we do this.

I don't think the Marxist interpretation is appropriate, due to the fact that the Iron Men, Gold Men and Stone Men were not classes, they were different factions. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the Age of Technology background, but basically the Gold Men were the first faction to [presumably] rule the human galactic civilisation. They were known as great artisans, if I recall correctly. Then the Stone Men arrived with superior technology and created the Iron Men - robots with artificial intelligence. The Gold Men eventually disappeared - though it is unclear how and why, and then the Stone Men were left with the Iron Men. War broke out between the two factions in a traditional sci-fi scenario of man vs machine (though again, it's unclear how and why the war started) and after a bloody affair the Stone Men prevailed. Then the Age of Strife began, and the Stone Men disappeared from history (although it is suspected that they might be the ancestors of the Adeptus Mechanicus).

So basically, you can't apply class-divisions like the Gold, Bronze and Stone-classes of Plato's kalipolis or the classes of Marx' technocracy, because these are three seperate factions. At least, that is the suggestion made in the very vague journal of Keeper Cripias (3rd edition rulebook)

I'll see if I can't post the whole article to give us all a better understanding.

[Luddite]

OK, i've reviewed the sources and i've come up with this 'aunt sally', to get some debate going...


Ages

Golden Age; (?-M21)   Mankind evolves from base creatures.  Emperor – ‘Old One’ (Possibly C’Tan?) placed their to watch over development.  Gold Men develop with strong psychic presence (souls) in Warp.  Religion, intellect, psychic prowess, culture.

Stone Age;   (M21-M26)   Eldar Fall Stone Men emerge (Dark Age of Technology) – Machine Age / Iron Men 

Age of Strife; (M23-M26)   Warplink restored – Gold&Stone Men unite and wipe out Iron Men. 

Twilight; (M26-M30)   Age of Strife ends with Mankind split asunder and aliens taking back territory lost to Humanity.  Exposed to the Warp, plagues, mutations and psykers wreak havoc among humanity
   
(M30)   Emperor emerges to unite Humanity

GOLD MEN
The 1st race of men emerged on Old Earth before M21.  Although records are scarce, it is possible this could have been as much as -400M.  Most source however, suggest 0M to be more likely, and that these early men were associated with the Emperor, who is said to have emerged around that time.
The Gold Men were ‘fine limbed and strong of mind’; masters of philosophy and enlightenment, founders of beneficent religion, and builders of great civilisations.  They brought order to the chaos of nature and were bright souls in the Warp, capable of resisting its terrible influence.
The Gold Men had technology enough to tame nature and bring order to Old Earth.

Then the warp changed.  A great disturbance hardened the veil between the Materium and the Immaterium; the most likely cause being the Fall of the Eldar.  Humanity changed and while the Gold Men survived, their psychic prowess and enlightenment diminished.  Their accomplishments of paradise on Old Earth waned and from Human stock emerged a new race; the Stone Men.

The Stone Men lacked the blessings of the Gold Men, being inferior in form and spirit.  But they were creatures of the Materium and as such were masters of its nature.  Science and technology came easy to them, although enlightenment and culture came hard.

The Gold Men soon harnessed this new breed and their technologies and together, with the Gold Men’s vision and the Stone Men’s craft, humanity took to the Stars.

But away from Old Earth the Gold Men struggled, and the technological superiority of the Stone Men prevailed.

The Gold Men retreated into hidden enclaves, retaining minimal contact with their Material brethren.  There they pursued the past glories and pondered on the reasons for their fall from grace.

These Gold Men spent the Millenia exploring the outer reaches of Reality, in search of the connection to the Warp.  Their meditations changed them and they were to re-emerge much later, at the behest of the Emperor, as the creatures known as the Navigators.

THE STONE MEN
Around the 21M the Warp changed.  A great disturbance hardened the veil between the Materium and the Immaterium; the most likely cause being the Fall of the Eldar.  Humanity changed and the ancient Gold Men (surviving in a diminished state) were joined by the new breed of Stone Men.

The Stone Men lacked the blessings of the Gold Men, being inferior in form and spirit.  But they were creatures of the Materium and as such were masters of its nature.  Science and technology came easy to them, although enlightenment and culture came hard.

The Stone Men knew little of the Warp or of the higher pursuits.  Even simple religion was anathema to them and became a secular expression of control in their cultures.  But they were industrious and inspired craftsmen able to create technologies of the Materium unfathomable to the Gold Men.  Even the very fabric of reality became their plaything and Reality could be reshaped from the sub-quantum level up.

The Gold Men soon harnessed this new breed and their technologies and together, with the Gold Men’s vision and the Stone Men’s craft, humanity took to the Stars.

But away from Old Earth the Gold Men struggled, and the technological superiority of the Stone Men prevailed.  The Gold Men retreated from History.

The Stone Men now found themselves masters of their own destiny and carved out a great dominion for themselves.  But the task was great indeed and even their enhanced bio-reproductive capacities, genetic cloning technologies and other such biological marvels were not enough to keep pace with their needs. 

And so the Stone Men created the Iron Men; a child-race made in their own image to serve and aid the expansion of Humanity.  The Iron Men were technology made sentient and at first willingly served.  As they grew and matured, they ceased to be servants and the Stone and Iron Men became equals in the great Diaspora of humanity.

As the Millennia passed, gradual change emerged.  The veil between the Materium and the Immaterium weakened as the shockwaves from the Fall of the Eldar subsided.  The souls of the Stone Men began to glow bright in the Warp, and the warp glowed bright in them.

Psykers began to emerge and cause havoc.  Physical mutation and degeneration began to emerge and nothing in the Stone Men’s technological armoury could prevent it.

Unseen, the Gold Men began to walk among humanity once more, now a changed race, they were curious to see the effects on the Stone Men.

Together with these changes, the Stone Men began to forget their technological brilliance and together with the Iron Men, formed the organisation that would become the Adeptus Mechanicus, to protect and preserve the great achievements.

Horrified at the increasing degeneration of technological skills and at the incomprehensible changes in the Stone Men, the Iron Men began a program of eugenics to weed out the mutations.  They also usurped many of the institutions, sure that the Stone Men were becoming a liability.

War was inevitable, and with their emergent faith and zeal and the power of the Warp at their disposal, the Stone Men, now often covertly led by the Gold Men returned eventually wiped out the Iron Men, who despite their intellect were too logical to adapt.



THE IRON MEN
The Iron Men were created by the Stone Men, initially as a child-race made in their own image to serve and aid the expansion of Humanity.  The Iron Men were technology made sentient and at first willingly served.  A variety of Iron Men existed incorporating advanced thinking technology, artificial intelligence, or even cybernetic fusions of biology and technology.

As the Iron Men grew and matured, they ceased to be servants and the Stone and became equals in the great Diaspora of humanity.  THE Iron Men were equal in status and quality, and while many were metal in form, others were fusions of lining tissue and technology said to be indistinguishable from the Stone Men that created them.

The Iron Men were emancipated and took control of their own reproduction, casting many forms of themselves.

As the Millennia passed, gradual change emerged in the realm of Men.  The veil between the Materium and the Immaterium weakened as the shockwaves from the Fall of the Eldar subsided.  The souls of the Stone Men began to glow bright in the Warp, and the Warp glowed bright in them.

Psykers began to emerge and cause havoc.  Physical mutation and degeneration began to emerge and the Stone Men began to forget their technological brilliance.

The Iron Men feared for the future of Man, and formed the organisation that would become the Adeptus Mechanicus, to protect and preserve the great achievements.

Horrified at the increasing degeneration of technological skills and at the incomprehensible changes in the Stone Men, the Iron Men began a program of eugenics to protect their realm.  With the Stone Men becoming increasingly unstable and self destructive, the Iron Men took control of many of the key institutions of the Empire, sure that the Stone Men were becoming a liability.

Strange new concepts such as faith and religion began to emerge and twisted demagogues created factions among the Stone Men that threatened the Iron Men; calling them abominations and soulless machines.

War was inevitable, and with their emergent faith and zeal and the power of the Warp at their disposal, the Stone Men, waged a relentless war, wiping out the Iron Men, who despite their intellect were too logical to adapt.





NOTES
Golden Race.  1st Men. 
Join Emperor but he does not reveal himself. 
‘Fine limb; strong mind’.  Philosophical temperament and disposition.  Psykers?
Spread across Old Earth creating Order and Civilisation on nature’s anarchy.
Harness the tech marvels of the Stone Men, and look to the stars to expand their dominion.
Expansion into stars = reliance on technology.  Gold men dwindle in influence, and Stone Men take over in the 21st M.
Gold Men retreat to ‘’enclaves’ – Become Navigators (ancestors of Navis Nobilite)
M25? As Stone Men start mutating, and Warplink restored, Gold Men reemerge to join/lead Stone Men.  Iron Men resist the ‘degeneration’ and are wiped out.

Stable psykers – higher form of man


Stone Men
Stone Race.  2nd Men.
Appear.  The fall of the Eldar creates shockwaves that cut man off from the Warp – creates weak-souled men – become creatures of the materium, hence tech-strong / not psykers.  Warpspace becomes ‘tamed’
Physically and culturally inferior to Gold Men
Bring miracles and marvels of technology that strengthen their power.  Masters of technology.
Build great starships to take both Gold and Stone men into space
Expansion into stars = reliance on technology.  Gold men dwindle in influence, and Stone Men take over in the 21st M.
M21-M25? - Iron Men created by Stone Men to aid in building their Great Empire
Iron Men evolve and two races become equal and explored the stars together.
As realm of man expands FTL cannot cope with distances.  Tech becomes limited.  Shockwaves from Eldar Fall subside – Stone Men restore Warplink and become psykers…mutation increases…understanding of tech weakens.  Warp Storms return, making tech less useful.  Religion returns.
Iron Men embark on eugenics and purging of Stone Men.   M25 – AdMech founded (perhaps as tech development ends – preserving it becomes vital).
Open War ensues and Iron Men wiped out as enclaves of Golden Men remerge are Navigators and full psykers to guide the restored Stone Men – unable to compete Iron Men are wiped out.

Lower form of man – emerged with weak souls due to Eldar Fall – Warp re-established itself and caused great mutations /resurgent psykers

Iron Men
M21-M25?
Iron Men created by Stone Men to aid in building their Great Empire
Willing servants, who serve ‘with no thought’.  Soulless ‘artificial persons’ (AI robots)
Evolve.  By M23?  They are equal to Stone Men.  Both set about conquering the galaxy – terrible war vs. aliens
As realm of man expands FTL cannot cope with distances.  Tech becomes limited.  Shockwaves from Eldar Fall subside – Stone Men restore Warplink and become psykers…mutation increases…understanding of tech weakens.  Religion returns.
Soulless Iron Men unaffected by psyker/mutation re-emergence but horrified that Stone Men appear to be degenerating in reason and body and losing Tech base.  Incapable of understanding Religion…
Iron Men embark on eugenics and purging of Stone Men.   M25 – AdMech founded (perhaps as tech development ends – preserving it becomes vital).
Open War ensues and Iron Men wiped out – unable to compete with psykers or mobility given by Golden Men/Navigators.

Created by Stone Men as soulless creatures.  Destroyed by reemergent psyker-humans

[Kage2020]

First off, Luddie, I've just noticed your signature.  That's hilarious.

Secondly, check your PM.  I've got a quick favour to ask, though I'm not sure on whether it can be done or not so... Well, just check your PMs.

Okay, now the thread...


Firstly, or technically thirdly, in whatever guise it happens I'm interested in wangling in the secret societies.  I still think that they have a great deal of potential in application to the 40k universe without going down the well-worn rut that is "Chaos Cult."

Erm, now really onto the thread.

Golden Age; (?-M21)   Mankind evolves from base creatures.  Emperor – ‘Old One’ (Possibly C’Tan?) placed their to watch over development.  Gold Men develop with strong psychic presence (souls) in Warp.  Religion, intellect, psychic prowess, culture.

Right, this is something that I'll come out of technological retirement to lay the smack down about.  I'm afraid that I really don't want to go down the route that sees the Emperor as an Old One, just as I don't want to go down the Xenology-inspired interpretations that sees the surviving Eldar Gods - perhaps all of the Eldar Gods - as Old Ones.

Secondly, the "strong psychic presence" is absent from humanity until the Age of Strife.  Unless we're going to try and retconn that bit of 'fluff' - something that has been attempted with the whole Iron Men thing in the first place - then I think that we leave this idea by the wayside.  That is, the Age of Strife was - as originally - at least partially the result of the simultaneous emergence of human psykers on worlds across the former human civilisation.  It's almost like a psychic speciation event, brought on by the tumultuous warp (of which the relationship between the immaterium and matterium is a fascinating topic when getting to this kind of thing)

So, while "humans" (even that is open to interpretation) might have had a strong warp presence once, this was culled out of the population for millennia with the Shaman Sacrifice and the creation of the New Man.

Thus sayeth the law.

Stone Age;   (M21-M26)   Eldar Fall Stone Men emerge (Dark Age of Technology) – Machine Age / Iron Men 

Timing seems to be off again, I think?  The Dark Age of Technology, synonymous with the Golden Age of Technology, runs from around M16 to M26, with the Age of Strife starting at M26 and finishing in M30. 

The chronology of the Eldar Fall is contentious, but I personally like to push it back to M26 and the beginning of the Age of Strife (Fall-as-process), but I don't think that you're going to find serious numbers from GW.  (Ha!  Are you ever?)

Age of Strife; (M23-M26)   Warplink restored – Gold&Stone Men unite and wipe out Iron Men. 

The Age of Strife seems to be equivalent to Traveller's "Long Night," a period of economic and social decline.  Of course, in typical GW "grimdark" fashion they seem to have extended this to the majority of worlds falling back to the Stone Age, but thankfully one of the few good things about the Horus Heresy novels (in my mind) is that they have at least kept the idea that it wasn't all a fall to barbarism.

Suffice to say, however, that the Age of Strife is initiated after - or as a partial result - of the strife with the Iron Men.

(M30)   Emperor emerges to unite Humanity

Bless 'im.

The 1st race of men emerged on Old Earth before M21.  Although records are scarce, it is possible this could have been as much as -400M.  Most source however, suggest 0M to be more likely, and that these early men were associated with the Emperor, who is said to have emerged around that time.

We might want to check out Destecado's original posts on this matter, but regardless of that my personal approach has always been to view the "Golden Age" men in terms of the Greek "Golden Age" -- the period before the point at which you begin to look at your current culture and think that the "grass was always greener" back in the day.

Their accomplishments of paradise on Old Earth waned and from Human stock emerged a new race; the Stone Men.

I've increasingly become fond of Destecado's original premise that the Stone Men are basically the successors to the people of Earth (I'm probably misremembering this), or the people of Mars.  Of course, I'm willing to be wowed by cooler concepts.

The Stone Men lacked the blessings of the Gold Men, being inferior in form and spirit.  But they were creatures of the Materium and as such were masters of its nature.  Science and technology came easy to them, although enlightenment and culture came hard.

And isn't this appropriate to the above?  It is the perfect moral judgement, looking back on the achievements of the past and defining them as lesser.  How very Imperial.

And so the Stone Men created the Iron Men; a child-race made in their own image to serve and aid the expansion of Humanity.

An interpretation that I rather like.  Whether they be AI, androids, bioroids, or whatever.  They are, however, just technology.  If we could, I would rather that we didn't go down the route of Artilects and Iron Men-as-STC if we could avoid it.

Together with these changes, the Stone Men began to forget their technological brilliance and together with the Iron Men, formed the organisation that would become the Adeptus Mechanicus, to protect and preserve the great achievements.

One interpretation that I'm fond of keeping is that the Adeptus Mechanicus did not form out of desperation to maintain technology, but rather the ability of certain people to keep a control of technology.  Too much of the 40k universe is left to "putting out fires," but in a purportedly "grimdark" universe can we not at least keep a bit of the dark nature of the human soul?  Avarice, maybe?  Yay unto megalomania?

‘Fine limb; strong mind’.  Philosophical temperament and disposition.  Psykers?

Again, I'd prefer the "Oh, they were better back then..." approach.  Or, in other words, the first point of "Golden Ageism," whereby you set up the perfect society and, then, everything goes down from there.

Gold Men retreat to ‘’enclaves’ – Become Navigators (ancestors of Navis Nobilite)

Nyargle.  One of the most interesting parts of the Navis Nobilite, surely, is that they were created? 

Physically and culturally inferior to Gold Men

This seems to be the perfect example of "Golden Ageism" and why we should not use it to define the "Metal Periods."

Kage

[CELS]

It's hard to get the timeline straight, because Alan Merrett switched things around a bit (mildly put) when he wrote the background for the Horus Heresy CCG. Some of you may know my feelings towards Alan Merrett already, so I'll leave it at that.

Here's a proposal for a timeline we can all agree on;

M1-M15 - Age of Terra. Mankind is confined to the Sol system, though several planets and moons are colonised.
M15-M20 - Golden Age of Technology. Early interstellar travel using sub-light starships. The Emperor "is joined by the First Men of the Golden Race".
M20-M25 - Dark Age of Technology. Early warp drives using calculated warp jumps. The Stone Men appear, slowly taking control of the human civilisation through their technological superiority.
M25-M30 - Age of Strife. The Golden Race, the Stone Men and the Iron Men cease to exist as galactic factions as the human civilisation is torn apart.

Explanations...

The Golden Race. The Journal of Keeper Cripias has the Golden Men appearing in the Golden Age of Technology (not surprisingly). Luddite's suggestion is to make the Golden Men an ancient race (perhaps as old as M0), but the Journal of Keeper Cripias, however vague, suggests that they appear during the Golden Age of Technology, so M15 at the earliest.  I also like the idea that there is actually a period when Mankind does rather well and that it's not all utter strife and war from M0 to M40.

The rise of psykers. I'm also quite fond of the idea that human psykers became more prevalent due to turmoil in the warp, which in turn was connected to the Fall of the Eldar. However, I'm keen that it's not a clear cut thing. It didn't all happen midnight year 000.M25 GMT, at the exact second when the Eldar empire suddenly collapsed into anarchy. The Eldar empire is, after all, ancient. Its decline happened over many millennia as I see it, and the warp storms increased gradually over many millennia as well. I'm quite fine with the idea that the first psykers were proven to exist in the Golden Age of Technology, as Alan Merrett suggests, and that they became increasingly common during the Age of Strife. I see it as a gradual thing. However, I do agree with Kage that we should not say that Golden Men = psykers or anything like that.

The rise of Navigators. I also like the idea that they were created, and it seems to be the obvious explanation anyway. The question is who created them, and there are many interesting possible answers. It is possible that the Emperor himself assisted in their creation, as one of the things he while "waiting in the shadows". Another question would be how they ended up as sovereign entities, the powerful Navis Nobilite houses who owed allegiance to no one.

The most important questions that we're going to have to answer in order to get anywhere, I think, are...
- Was there in fact a physiological difference between the Golden Race and the Stone Race? Were they in fact races? Or is this a miscomprehension due to poorly translated history records over twenty thousand years, misunderstood by the Keeper Cripias? It could also be a techno-cultural thing, such as the Stone Race being content to rely on technology even for menial tasks (why walk when you can be carried on chairs with mechanical legs), thus resulting in a purely physiological adaptation (muscle atrophy, fragile bones, etc).

- Did the Golden Race disappear entirely during the Dark Age of Technology, or was their culture simply assimilated? And what of the Stone Race during the Age of Strife?

[Luddite]

Right strap yourselves in, it’s a long ride!

Firstly, or technically thirdly, in whatever guise it happens I'm interested in wangling in the secret societies.  I still think that they have a great deal of potential in application to the 40k universe without going down the well-worn rut that is "Chaos Cult."

Agreed.  Fnord.

OK, so you got a couple of good lobs in there mate, cracked the Aunt Sally on the head a couple of times, but she’s still on the chair.  So in the words of Jules Winnfield, ‘well allow me to retort!’

First off, I don’t necessarily agree with any or all of what I posts on the ‘metal men’.  What I’ve presented is an attempt at rationalising the Journal of Keeper Cripias (hereafter JKC) (40k 3rd Ed.) which I guess is the best source available.

So, onto the specifics…

Emperor – ‘Old One’ (Possibly C’Tan?)

Right, this is something that I'll come out of technological retirement to lay the smack down about.  I'm afraid that I really don't want to go down the route that sees the Emperor as an Old One, just as I don't want to go down the Xenology-inspired interpretations that sees the surviving Eldar Gods - perhaps all of the Eldar Gods - as Old Ones.

Agreed.  I think it’s a cop-out and devalues the whole Humanity thing.  However, JKC says, ‘in the first arge of man, the golden age, there is the Emperor.  Unseen and unheralded he prepares the Old Earth for the coming of mankind’…

So if he’s not ‘Chariots of the Gods’, how do we account for this?

Secondly, the "strong psychic presence" is absent from humanity until the Age of Strife.

Is it?  Source?  I’ve no problem with that as it fits with my ideas (se later)

That is, the Age of Strife was - as originally - at least partially the result of the simultaneous emergence of human psykers on worlds across the former human civilisation.

OK, I REALLY don’t like this ‘spontaneous emergence’ thing.  Cause and effect.  WHY do humans suddenly start becoming psychic?

Does travel through the Warp expose the human mind, creating psykers?
Is it natural evolution?  If so, why psyker power?
Not sure…

  It's almost like a psychic speciation event, brought on by the tumultuous warp (of which the relationship between the immaterium and matterium is a fascinating topic when getting to this kind of thing)

Ah, so…well that’s possible.

Allopatric effect is possible, with planetary divergence.  But why then does it appear to be species-wide?  Unless you modify it to the parapatric model?  Even then it’s a stretch…

I think the peripatric effect can be discounted also, for the same reasons.  Unless we retcon and have psykers emerge as an isoltated population that then breeds the trait out through the Empire?

The sympatric effect seems most likely but then what is the most likely catalyst for change?  The Warp obviously…so again – travel through the Warp causes psyker-emergence?

It’s better than ‘it just happens’ shoulder-shrugging I guess?

So, while "humans" (even that is open to interpretation) might have had a strong warp presence once, this was culled out of the population for millennia with the Shaman Sacrifice and the creation of the New Man.

Which accords with the ideas of ‘replacement’ of the Gold Men with the Stone Men.  The Stone Men as an evolutionary change, in response to reduced Warp exposure, gradually purge out the Gold Men, by cultural superstitions, dogmatic religious practices (sacrifices) and being closer to the Materium,  higher reproductive rate…

The Gold Men essentially evolve into the Stone Men as the Warp-contact weakens.

Timing seems to be off again, I think?  The Dark Age of Technology, synonymous with the Golden Age of Technology, runs from around M16 to M26, with the Age of Strife starting at M26 and finishing in M30. 

Aye.  These details can be thrashed out.  I’ve presented a very rough cut at the moment..

The chronology of the Eldar Fall is contentious, but I personally like to push it back to M26 and the beginning of the Age of Strife (Fall-as-process), but I don't think that you're going to find serious numbers from GW.  (Ha!  Are you ever?)

Agreed and I’m not an elder fan or expert so…

My references talked only about the Fall being ‘before X Millennium’, etc.

Of course, in typical GW "grimdark" fashion they seem to have extended this to the majority of worlds falling back to the Stone Age, but thankfully one of the few good things about the Horus Heresy novels (in my mind) is that they have at least kept the idea that it wasn't all a fall to barbarism.

Suffice to say, however, that the Age of Strife is initiated after - or as a partial result - of the strife with the Iron Men.

Agreed.  I don’t think the ‘Atlanis Falls’ model is appropriate either.  I see it more as ‘Rome falls’…the ‘Empire’ collapses into factions, and much of the previous interstellar integration is lost, but we’re not talking fur bikinis…

We might want to check out Destecado's original posts on this matter, but regardless of that my personal approach has always been to view the "Golden Age" men in terms of the Greek "Golden Age" -- the period before the point at which you begin to look at your current culture and think that the "grass was always greener" back in the day.

Well, that’s possible, but then you’re into ‘mythory’ aren’t you?  In which case attempts at reasoning in relation to the Gold Men at least become pointless since they are ‘story’ not ‘history’ (although of course for the Ancient Greeks, there was no distinction between the two…)

I've increasingly become fond of Destecado's original premise that the Stone Men are basically the successors to the people of Earth (I'm probably misremembering this), or the people of Mars.  Of course, I'm willing to be wowed by cooler concepts.

Well it’s not a cooler concept, but…since the Gold Men seemed to have not taken to space until they harness the talents of the Stone Men, I find this interpretation difficult.

If the Stone Men are native Martians, advanced enough for space travel, how were they dominated by the technologically inferior Gold Men?  How were they harnessed, since you assert that the Gold Men had no psykers?

The Stone Men lacked the blessings of the Gold Men, being inferior in form and spirit.  But they were creatures of the Materium and as such were masters of its nature.  Science and technology came easy to them, although enlightenment and culture came hard.

And isn't this appropriate to the above?  It is the perfect moral judgement, looking back on the achievements of the past and defining them as lesser.  How very Imperial.

Not sure I agree that this is ‘Golden Age-ism’

Gold Men = humans with strong warp contact (not necessarily psykers, but powerful and creative; ‘enlightened’ but lack technology)
Stone Men = humans with weak Warp contact, therefore strong ties to ‘reality – hence science & technology but lack ‘enlightenment’.

And so the Stone Men created the Iron Men; a child-race made in their own image to serve and aid the expansion of Humanity.

An interpretation that I rather like.  Whether they be AI, androids, bioroids, or whatever.  They are, however, just technology.  If we could, I would rather that we didn't go down the route of Artilects and Iron Men-as-STC if we could avoid it.

To me its self-evident from JKC.  The Iron Men are creations of the Stone Men.  Robots?  Cyborgs? Biological artificial people (Bishop from Aliens)?  Not sure, but given the apparent emancipation they undergo, and ‘equality with Stone Men’, I think its clear there’s a very close symbiosis here.

I’m mean it’s also possible that these represent clones?

One interpretation that I'm fond of keeping is that the Adeptus Mechanicus did not form out of desperation to maintain technology, but rather the ability of certain people to keep a control of technology.  Too much of the 40k universe is left to "putting out fires," but in a purportedly "grimdark" universe can we not at least keep a bit of the dark nature of the human soul?  Avarice, maybe?  Yay unto megalomania?

It’s clear there’s a technological collapse I think.  I explained that by the re-emergence of the Warp-link to the Stone Men…wich actually gets a bit Levi-Strauss by putting psyker/Warp and technology at opposite ends of a spectrum.  High-tek = low-psyker.

This is actually an interpretation I quite like as it ties technology/reason/logic to the Materium and psyker/enlightenment/emotion to the Immaterium, creating and interesting dichotomy.

That dichotomy also informs something like the Eldar who attempt to combine the two ends of the spectrum causing a rather unpleasant effect…

I see no problem with the JKC implication that the AdMech formed out of a desire to preserve a collapsing tech-base, as that doesn’t preclude the mission of retaining ‘control’ of technology…whatever you mean by ‘control’?

‘Fine limb; strong mind’.  Philosophical temperament and disposition.  Psykers?

Again, I'd prefer the "Oh, they were better back then..." approach.  Or, in other words, the first point of "Golden Ageism," whereby you set up the perfect society and, then, everything goes down from there.

EXCEPT, that it doesn’t set up a ‘perfect’ society.  The Gold Men were physically superior / enlightened because of a close and harmonious link to the Warp, but that precluded any real understanding of technology…is that a Golden Age?  Subjective…

Gold Men retreat to ‘’enclaves’ – Become Navigators (ancestors of Navis Nobilite)

Nyargle.  One of the most interesting parts of the Navis Nobilite, surely, is that they were created? 

So the Gold Men retreated to their enclaves weren’t psykers to begin with but spent Millennia try to find out why things went wrong / where the Warp contact had weakened?

So the skills of bio-genetics they learned from the Stone Men meant they created the Navigator gene to aid their studies in trying to explore the Warp?

‘Creating’ the Navigators…

Physically and culturally inferior to Gold Men

This seems to be the perfect example of "Golden Ageism" and why we should not use it to define the "Metal Periods."

But technologically superior.  Since a technological base is an aspect of culture, perhaps some more in-depth definitions are required?

Kage
[/quote]

Here's a proposal for a timeline we can all agree on;

Agreed

The Golden Race. The Journal of Keeper Cripias has the Golden Men appearing in the Golden Age of Technology (not surprisingly). Luddite's suggestion is to make the Golden Men an ancient race (perhaps as old as M0), but the Journal of Keeper Cripias, however vague, suggests that they appear during the Golden Age of Technology, so M15 at the earliest.

Did I miss something then?  JKC says the Golden Age ends around 21M, but I can’t see where it says it starts.  The reference says that the Gold Men join the emperor, spreading across Old Earth bringing order and civilisation to nature…

I therefore assumed the Gold Men were ‘us’; Cro Magnon – Homo Sapiens development, hence the -400M…

I also like the idea that there is actually a period when Mankind does rather well and that it's not all utter strife and war from M0 to M40.

Me too.  I like the idea too that the stability of the Warp plays a part…which goes to your comment…

The rise of psykers. I'm also quite fond of the idea that human psykers became more prevalent due to turmoil in the warp, which in turn was connected to the Fall of the Eldar. However, I'm keen that it's not a clear cut thing. It didn't all happen midnight year 000.M25 GMT, at the exact second when the Eldar empire suddenly collapsed into anarchy.

Agreed.  I’d see this paralleling the gradual transition/evolution of humanity from Gold Men to Stone Men.

However, I do agree with Kage that we should not say that Golden Men = psykers or anything like that.

Agreed which is why I didn’t state they were psykers, just;

‘They brought order to the chaos of nature and were bright souls in the Warp, capable of resisting its terrible influence.’…

Another question would be how they ended up as sovereign entities, the powerful Navis Nobilite houses who owed allegiance to no one.

I’d say as part of the re-emergence of the Gold Men, Humanity had lost the technology for effective interstellar travel without utilising passage through the Warp.  The Navigators /Gold Men descendants were able to do this – hence their rise to power…

- Was there in fact a physiological difference between the Golden Race and the Stone Race?

Yes.  I’d say the Gold Men were humanity who had a stable relationship with a ‘calm’ Warp.  They were psysically, psychically and mentally enhanced (enlightened), byt this harmonious relationship with the intangible.

The Stone Men were humans who had a weak relationship to the Warp, severed by the tumult caused by the Eldar Fall.
Strongly bound to ‘reality’ they lacked enlightenment but became powerfully linked to the nature of the Materium – hence secular, psycho-intellectually diminished, but very strongly linked to science and technology – the attributes of the Materium..

Were they in fact races?

Yes, in the sense that today on Earth there are different ‘races’ (white, black, asian, oriental, etc.)  They are the same species, but different iterations…’races’.

- Did the Golden Race disappear entirely during the Dark Age of Technology, or was their culture simply assimilated?

No.  For me they are the part of humanity that is close to the Warp.  They ‘reemerge’ as the Stone Men begin to mutate/develop a close relationship to the Warp as it starts to restore contact after the Eldar Fall…as genetically created Navigators, able to deal with the Warp, and also other powerful psykers (after millennia of studying the Warp, their inherent ties to it start to develop into ‘psykers’…



Um…yes…so, ‘discuss’

[Dragon Lord]

Something that I have always been curious about with the references to the 'Gold Men' and the 'Stone Men' is whether these races represent the bulk of humanity or a dominant minority, which is not made clear at any point.  I also seem to remember something about the relationship between the Gold Men and the warp being described roughly as The Gold Men lived on islands separated by deep ocean that was too cold and wide for them to cross, so they built ships of stone to protect them on the journey.  While I agree that I don't think we should set the Gold Men up as stable psykers this does seem to indicate that the Gold Men are similar to humanity in the Age of the Imperium in that they have a presence in the warp and cannot traverse it unprotected.  Also the fact that the ships of the Gold Men are described as 'made of stone' and this protects the Gold Men, and then we have the 'Stone Men' I do wonder if perhaps the idea that the Stone Men had no, or a limited, warp presence is along the right lines.
In addition from the description in the Journal of Keeper Cripias the implication is that the 'current' human race as it exists in the 41st millenium is the result of the fractured and fragemented race of the Stone Men, which would conflict with the Stone Men have a limited warp presence, unless the Stone Men were a ruling class rather than the masses themselves.

As to who the Gold race are my suggestion would be that they were a race of superior humans created through genetic engineering in the Golden Age, this would explain them being of 'fine limb and strong mind'.  Given that this is described as the Golden Age of Man leading into the Dark Age of Technology we can I think safely assume levels of technology at least comparable with that in the early Imperium and we know that sufficient genetic technologies were available to create the Space Marines and Primarchs in the early Imperium.  So my suggestion would be that we think of the Gold Race in a little bit the way one would consider the Space Marines, genetically engineered to be superior to normal humans in every way.
This would certainly place the Gold race in the 'dominant minority' position at least initially though it is possible they may have gone on to form the bulk of human kind.  So perhaps the Gold race remained as a dominant minority and that the Stone Men then arose from the unengineered masses (whether these people were not engineered through their own choice or not is another matter).  The Stone Men (possibly unwilling to rely on genetic engineering) focussed on technological achievements to further themselves and eventually this equalled and surpassed the genetic superiority of the Gold Men.  Although this then conflicts with the fact that we know that most early human colonies had significant STC genetic-engineering facilities with which they sometimes altered themselves to fit in with their environment, and the fact that the Navigators were most likely created through genetic engineering.  The Stone Men went on to become the dominant faction of humanity and the Gold race faded into obscurity.

Well those are my thoughts on the matter, nothing terribly coherent at this stage I'm afraid, but maybe helpful in some way.
Everything above this line was written before Luddite's last post.

Agreed.  I think it’s a cop-out and devalues the whole Humanity thing.  However, JKC says, ‘in the first arge of man, the golden age, there is the Emperor.  Unseen and unheralded he prepares the Old Earth for the coming of mankind’…

I also agree, as others on this forum will know I am not a great fan of the Old Ones in any way, and thus would certainly prefer the Emperor not be related to them.

I’d say as part of the re-emergence of the Gold Men, Humanity had lost the technology for effective interstellar travel without utilising passage through the Warp.  The Navigators /Gold Men descendants were able to do this – hence their rise to power…

I rather object to the idea that humanity ever had the technology for effective interstellar travel without utilising passage through the warp, the only race in the 40k universe that supposedly has FTL technology are the Necrons/Necrontyr, and I'm not too happy about them having it either, the basic premise being that everything in 40k that breaks the laws of physics is explainable by the warp.  There is also that I no of no evidence to suggest humanity ever had non-warp based FTL technology.

It's almost like a psychic speciation event, brought on by the tumultuous warp (of which the relationship between the immaterium and matterium is a fascinating topic when getting to this kind of thing)

Ah, so…well that’s possible.

Allopatric effect is possible, with planetary divergence.  But why then does it appear to be species-wide?  Unless you modify it to the parapatric model?  Even then it’s a stretch…

I think the peripatric effect can be discounted also, for the same reasons.  Unless we retcon and have psykers emerge as an isoltated population that then breeds the trait out through the Empire?

The sympatric effect seems most likely but then what is the most likely catalyst for change?  The Warp obviously…so again – travel through the Warp causes psyker-emergence?

It’s better than ‘it just happens’ shoulder-shrugging I guess?

Well I will start by making the point that psychic 'evolution' doesn't have to take the same route as standard evolutionary development, though I'm not vastly fond of this argument myself and so won't invoke it unless necessary.
So, other explanations.
My own thoughts on the matter are that humanity was gradually evolving towards becoming a psychic race in already, I believe it was mentioned that the first psykers were proved to exist during the Golden Age?  However the Fall of the Eldar, being a massive psychic event, interferred with this evolution and caused humanities psychic abilities to increase much more rapidly.  Prior to the Age of Strife given the level of technology at humanities disposal I think that space travel would have been common and so the human gene pool would have been mixed on a galactic scale, meaning those with nascent psychic abilities would also be widely dispersed.

I therefore assumed the Gold Men were ‘us’; Cro Magnon – Homo Sapiens development, hence the -400M…

This is possible, but it does state that the Gold Men 'appeared' during the Golden Age, and calling the entirety of human evolution the Golden Age is stretching things a bit I think.

[Luddite]

Hi Dragon Lord

I also seem to remember something about the relationship between the Gold Men and the warp being described roughly as The Gold Men lived on islands separated by deep ocean that was too cold and wide for them to cross, so they built ships of stone to protect them on the journey.

Interesting.  Do you have the source for this?

Also the fact that the ships of the Gold Men are described as 'made of stone' and this protects the Gold Men, and then we have the 'Stone Men' I do wonder if perhaps the idea that the Stone Men had no, or a limited, warp presence is along the right lines.

So…you’re saying the Stone Men simply were the Gold Men but it’s a reference to when they were travelling in star ships?  So in fact Gold Men / Stone Men are the same?

In addition from the description in the Journal of Keeper Cripias the implication is that the 'current' human race as it exists in the 41st millenium is the result of the fractured and fragemented race of the Stone Men, which would conflict with the Stone Men have a limited warp presence, unless the Stone Men were a ruling class rather than the masses themselves.

Which is why I addressed that by basically saying..

1.  Stable Warp.  Humanity has good links with it = Gold Men

2.  Eldar Fall disrupts Warp, causing rift between Warp/Reality.

3.  ‘Remote’ Warp.  Humanity becomes more ‘Material’ , hence becoming more technical.  – Stone Men

4.  Warp rift ‘settles down’.  Humanity re-establishes contact with Warp, but are now Stone Men and not Gold Men so cannot handle the Warp contact.  Start to mutate / develop psykers

As to who the Gold race are my suggestion would be that they were a race of superior humans created through genetic engineering in the Golden Age, this would explain them being of 'fine limb and strong mind'.

Why does genetic engineering have to be brought in to explain that?  GE is an advanced technology, which It seems clear the Gold Men lacked, which was why the Stone Men became dominant…my take ties to explain why those changes happened – the nature of the Warp changed…

  Given that this is described as the Golden Age of Man leading into the Dark Age of Technology we can I think safely assume levels of technology at least comparable with that in the early Imperium and we know that sufficient genetic technologies were available to create the Space Marines and Primarchs in the early Imperium.

I don’t think we can ‘safely assume’ that at all.  Now the Nomenclature are admittedly ‘41M Imperial’ so loaded with their cultural biases, but it seems to me the differentiation between the Golden Age and the Dark Age of Tech, is well, technology.  So I would suggest the Golden Age was based on a lower tech capacity than the Dark Age of Tech…which for me precludes any sort of advanced genetech…

It seems to be the Stone Men that brought all that in.

  So my suggestion would be that we think of the Gold Race in a little bit the way one would consider the Space Marines, genetically engineered to be superior to normal humans in every way.

For me, this is a resounding ‘no’.  The Astartes for me are a creation of the Emperor who perhaps combined the aspects of the Gold and Stone Man culture and capacity…or possibly simply used Stone Man tech.

I think any reference to or link with the Astartes should be kept away from the Gold Men.

This would certainly place the Gold race in the 'dominant minority' position at least initially though it is possible they may have gone on to form the bulk of human kind.

But before the Stone Men the Gold Men weren’t a minority/majority, they were the ‘only’.

It’s clear to me that as the Stone Men developed, the Gold Men were dominant but gradually as the Diaspora into space progressed and technology became more vital, the Stone Men overturned that and eventually the Gold Men seemed to have disappeared…

 
I rather object to the idea that humanity ever had the technology for effective interstellar travel without utilising passage through the warp, the only race in the 40k universe that supposedly has FTL technology are the Necrons/Necrontyr, and I'm not too happy about them having it either, the basic premise being that everything in 40k that breaks the laws of physics is explainable by the warp.  There is also that I no of no evidence to suggest humanity ever had non-warp based FTL technology.

Is there not? 
Does anyone have any fluff sources about this? 
Has Humanity ever had FTL? 
Or interstellar non-Warp travel?
 I’m not sure, but I see no reason why not…even within the Imperium ‘now’ (41M).

My own thoughts on the matter are that humanity was gradually evolving towards becoming a psychic race in already, I believe it was mentioned that the first psykers were proved to exist during the Golden Age?

Given the complete mess the psykers seem to make of humanity, why was the psyker trait evolving ‘naturally’?

How did its benefits outweigh is flaws, evolutionarily speaking?

  However the Fall of the Eldar, being a massive psychic event, interferred with this evolution and caused humanities psychic abilities to increase much more rapidly.

Why increase?  ( I have an idea why it might, but I’m curious to hear your views).

I therefore assumed the Gold Men were ‘us’; Cro Magnon – Homo Sapiens development, hence the -400M…

This is possible, but it does state that the Gold Men 'appeared' during the Golden Age, and calling the entirety of human evolution the Golden Age is stretching things a bit I think.

Why?

And it’s not the ‘whole of human history’, just the last 440,000 years or so…!  Hehe…

The Gold Men it seems did indeed ‘appear’ (according to the key source). 

My explanation is indigenous human evolutionary development.

How else do you suggest they ‘appeared’?   

[Dragon Lord]

Interesting.  Do you have the source for this?

I wish I did, I've been wracking by mind trying to think where I saw it, but thus far to no avail.

So…you’re saying the Stone Men simply were the Gold Men but it’s a reference to when they were travelling in star ships?  So in fact Gold Men / Stone Men are the same?

No, what I was saying was that the ships were described as made of stone, which made them and their occupants immune to the effects of the warp, and extending that to suggest that perhaps that meant the Stone Men were also 'immune to the effects of the warp', i.e. had little or no warp presence.

Which is why I addressed that by basically saying..

1.  Stable Warp.  Humanity has good links with it = Gold Men

2.  Eldar Fall disrupts Warp, causing rift between Warp/Reality.

3.  ‘Remote’ Warp.  Humanity becomes more ‘Material’ , hence becoming more technical.  – Stone Men

4.  Warp rift ‘settles down’.  Humanity re-establishes contact with Warp, but are now Stone Men and not Gold Men so cannot handle the Warp contact.  Start to mutate / develop psykers

That chain of events is possible I suppose, but that would tend to suggest that the Gold Men became the Stone Men rather than the Stone Men appearing and then working alongside the Gold Men.

Why does genetic engineering have to be brought in to explain that?  GE is an advanced technology, which It seems clear the Gold Men lacked, which was why the Stone Men became dominant…my take ties to explain why those changes happened – the nature of the Warp changed…

Genetic engineering is a relatively advanced technology, but I think that in comparison with some others it is not quite that advanced, if we consider modern society we already have rudimentary genetic engineering whereas something like for example plasma reactors (i.e. fusion) or global terraforming is some way away from being a reality.  I'm not suggesting that the Gold Men have to have GE tech as advanced as that which the Emperor used to create the Primarchs or even perhaps the Space Marines.

I don’t think we can ‘safely assume’ that at all.  Now the Nomenclature are admittedly ‘41M Imperial’ so loaded with their cultural biases, but it seems to me the differentiation between the Golden Age and the Dark Age of Tech, is well, technology.  So I would suggest the Golden Age was based on a lower tech capacity than the Dark Age of Tech…which for me precludes any sort of advanced genetech…

It seems to be the Stone Men that brought all that in.

Yes, the words 'safely assume' were perhaps misplaced.
I certainly agree that the technology of the Golden was somewhat lower than that of the Dark Age of technology, but the current technological level of the Imperium is probably orders of magnitude lower that that around in the Dark Age of Technology, so it is still possible for the technology of the Golden Age to equal or surpass that of the current Imperium.

For me, this is a resounding ‘no’.  The Astartes for me are a creation of the Emperor who perhaps combined the aspects of the Gold and Stone Man culture and capacity…or possibly simply used Stone Man tech.

I think any reference to or link with the Astartes should be kept away from the Gold Men.

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear, I'm not suggesting in any way that there is any sort of actual link between the Gold Men and the Astartes, I was suggesting that the relationship between the abilities of the Gold Men and humanity c.M3 might be similar to that between the Space Marines and common humans.

But before the Stone Men the Gold Men weren’t a minority/majority, they were the ‘only’.

It’s clear to me that as the Stone Men developed, the Gold Men were dominant but gradually as the Diaspora into space progressed and technology became more vital, the Stone Men overturned that and eventually the Gold Men seemed to have disappeared…

I will admit there is no direct evidence for the Gold Men not forming the entirety of humanity at that time, but equally there isn't anything to suggest otherwise.  I was using it in part as a way of helping explain how the Stone Men came to 'appear' as otherwise they would have to have been an offshoot of the Gold Men race, which just seemed a bit more awkward.

Is there not? 
Does anyone have any fluff sources about this? 
Has Humanity ever had FTL? 
Or interstellar non-Warp travel?
 I’m not sure, but I see no reason why not…even within the Imperium ‘now’ (41M).

Other instellar non-Warp travel I think yes, but not FTL, in the very early years of the diaspora humanity colonised the space near Earth using sub-light technology and huge 'generation ships' that formed a living community for the colonists until they reached their destination.  Can't find a source for this at the moment, but will try to.

Given the complete mess the psykers seem to make of humanity, why was the psyker trait evolving ‘naturally’?

How did its benefits outweigh is flaws, evolutionarily speaking?

In a calmer warp with less likelihood of possession, etc. minor psychic abilities like being lucky, limited precognition, reading surface thoughts of others, would be advantageous I think.

Why increase?  ( I have an idea why it might, but I’m curious to hear your views).

My thought was that the increase in turbulence and energy in the warp (and possibly also increase in number of malign warp entities) that the Fall of the Eldar brought meant that the souls of humans with psychic potential would begin to attract greater amounts of warp energy (and greater unwanted attention), this would increase their powers and also make them more uncontrollable.

Why?

And it’s not the ‘whole of human history’, just the last 440,000 years or so…!  Hehe…

The Gold Men it seems did indeed ‘appear’ (according to the key source). 

My explanation is indigenous human evolutionary development.

How else do you suggest they ‘appeared’?   

Well I suppose one could argue that the 'Gold Men' 'appeared' with the advent of civilisation in mesopotamia.

My suggestion for their appearance was genetic engineering of modern humans, which you weren't too fond of.

[Kage2020]

Agreed.  I think it’s a cop-out and devalues the whole Humanity thing.  However, JKC says, ‘in the first arge of man, the golden age, there is the Emperor.  Unseen and unheralded he prepares the Old Earth for the coming of mankind’…

So if he’s not ‘Chariots of the Gods’, how do we account for this?

This is one of the reasons that I merely attribute it to the "good 'ole days."  Plus, it just says that he's in it, not that his birth - or whatever - heralded it.

Is it?  Source?  I’ve no problem with that as it fits with my ideas (se later)

Erm, Watson's Space Marine had a basic timeline of humanity, which included this little tid bit on the Age of Strife:

M25 - Age of Strife

Humanity reaches the far edges of the galaxy, completing the push to the stars begun over ten thousand years before. Human civilisation is now widely dispersed and divergent - with countless small colonies as well as many large, overpopulated planets. Localised wars and disputes with various alien races, notably the Orks, but pose no threat to the overall stability of the human-colonised world. Then two things happen almost simultaneously. First, humans with psychic powers begin to appear on almost every colonised world. Second, civilisation starts to disintegrate under the stress of widespread insanity, daemonic possession, and internecine strife between these new 'psykers' and the rest of humanity. Countless fanatical cults and organisations spring up to persecute the psykers as witches, and/or degenerate mutants. At this time, the existence of the creatures of the warp (later known and feared as daemons), and the dangers they pose to the human mind with newly awakened psychic powers, is far from understood. Terrible wars tear human civilisation apart. Localised empires and factions fight amongst themselves as well as against fleets of Orks, Tyranids, and other aliens whose forces are quick to seize the opportunity to sack human space. Many worlds fall prey to the dominance of Warp Creatures whilst others revert to barbarism. Humans survive only on those worlds where psykers are suppressed or controlled. During this time, Terra is cut off from the rest of humanity by terrible warp storms, which isolate the home world for several thousand years, further accelerating the ruin of humanity.

Old source, yes, but not invalid.  It is a framework upon which we can cobble Merrett's debacle of background creation (I'm fond of saying that much of Merrett's work contains "too much Merrett and very little merit").  Thus we don't have to go solely on the idea that "the Iron Men did it."  That makes the Dune homage a bit too cloying.

OK, I REALLY don’t like this ‘spontaneous emergence’ thing.  Cause and effect.  WHY do humans suddenly start becoming psychic?

As CELS points out, and has been pointed out before on other boards and threads, one of the most reasonable explanations is to tie it to the birthing pangs of Slaanesh.

Allopatric effect is possible, with planetary divergence.  But why then does it appear to be species-wide?  Unless you modify it to the parapatric model?  Even then it’s a stretch…

Well, neither of those fit since here we're dealing with psychic mojo here, not genetic variation.  Again, it's emergence of psykers on "almost every colonised world."  

The Warp obviously…so again – travel through the Warp causes psyker-emergence?

As above, we already have a "mechanic" by which this occurs.

Which accords with the ideas of ‘replacement’ of the Gold Men with the Stone Men.

Only insofar as Cripias is given priviledged information.  I personally find it hard to believe that he had access to the "truth" of the Shaman Sacrifice, thus I would not include it as a feasible interpretation of "Gold Men."

Aye.  These details can be thrashed out.  I’ve presented a very rough cut at the moment..

And you've got CELS' differentiation into two periods, rather than having them synonymous.

Well, that’s possible, but then you’re into ‘mythory’ aren’t you? 

Sorry, I have no idea what mythory is other than "myth-history."  If you're suggesting that I feel that myth is history, then you're way off...

Well it’s not a cooler concept, but…since the Gold Men seemed to have not taken to space until they harness the talents of the Stone Men, I find this interpretation difficult.

Since the Keeper Cripias sees M21 as the end of the Golden Age, I think that it's a bit tenuous to argue that the Gold Men did not take to space.  After all, humanity had taken to the stars in M16 (some 13,000 years after the warp is discovered - talk about being a bit slow! )

If the Stone Men are native Martians, advanced enough for space travel, how were they dominated by the technologically inferior Gold Men?  How were they harnessed, since you assert that the Gold Men had no psykers?

First off, to be fair I've never seen a transcription of the Journal of the Keeper Cripias since I'm not "into" wargaming, thus don't happen to have it sitting around.  I haven't encountered an online transcription, so...

With that said, though, the suggestion that the "Men of Stone" are Martians is actually Destecado's.  Even then, it is my understanding that martial dominance is not suggested, only reliance upon the technologies.

Gold Men = humans with strong warp contact (not necessarily psykers, but powerful and creative; ‘enlightened’ but lack technology)
Stone Men = humans with weak Warp contact, therefore strong ties to ‘reality – hence science & technology but lack ‘enlightenment’.

I don't see that at all, to be fair.  It seems that you're tracing the reference to the Emperor as indicating that the "Gold Men" are psykers, when in fact from the other 'fluff' on the Emperor - the material that Cripias would not have had access to - strongly implies that with the New Man there was an end to strong psychic ability in humanity.

Not sure, but given the apparent emancipation they undergo, and ‘equality with Stone Men’, I think its clear there’s a very close symbiosis here.

Symbiosis is, I think, too strong of a word to use and certainly takes a shaky step into the realm of Phil-verse, which I'm rather keen that the Anargo interpretation avoids.

It’s clear there’s a technological collapse I think.

It was certainly not my intent to imply that I thought that there was no technological collapse, but what I do wish to avoid is the simplistic assumptions inherent in the 40k material that, in essence, go along the lines of: Golden Men give way to Stone Men, Stone Men are technological and create Iron Men, then forget everything that made them Stone Men (in the eyes of Cripias).  The Iron Men take up all technology, but lo and behold the Stone Men - or someone - didn't like this and then technology collapses around them.  Boo hoo.

On the other hand, I merely assume that society didn't turn entirely indolent.  That the pursuits of science and the mind were at least a part of that society, regardless of the reliance upon the Iron Men, and that these minds might have formed the "Cult of the Machine" as a means of maintaining that knowledge and, just as importantly, the power that it expresses.

This is actually an interpretation I quite like as it ties technology/reason/logic to the Materium and psyker/enlightenment/emotion to the Immaterium, creating and interesting dichotomy.

Well, this is inherent in the Necron-Old One material anyway.  With that said, what do the current 40k humans count as?  They seem to be post-Age, so introducing that technological-spiritual dichotomy in humanity might be a bit... I don't know.

That dichotomy also informs something like the Eldar who attempt to combine the two ends of the spectrum causing a rather unpleasant effect…

Not sure that I agree with the idea that the Eldar technomancy is "unpleasant," but there we go.

I see no problem with the JKC implication that the AdMech formed out of a desire to preserve a collapsing tech-base, as that doesn’t preclude the mission of retaining ‘control’ of technology…whatever you mean by ‘control’?

Never read it.  And see the above.

EXCEPT, that it doesn’t set up a ‘perfect’ society.

As you surely understand, it doesn't have to be a perfect society to be "Golden Age."  It is the act of reflection that tends to mask perceived flaws and overall just make things "better then than now."

The Gold Men were physically superior / enlightened because of a close and harmonious link to the Warp...

Which is tenuous given the extant 'fluff'.

So the Gold Men retreated to their enclaves weren’t psykers to begin with but spent Millennia try to find out why things went wrong / where the Warp contact had weakened?

Too much of this argument is predicated upon the idea of Golden Men=Psykers.

So the skills of bio-genetics they learned from the Stone Men meant they created the Navigator gene to aid their studies in trying to explore the Warp?

And now we're back into the realm of secret societies, which is something that I certainly don't mind.  

Agreed.  I’d see this paralleling the gradual transition/evolution of humanity from Gold Men to Stone Men.

If you do that, then you're going to have to shoe-horn them into a very small period.

Agreed which is why I didn’t state they were psykers, just;

‘They brought order to the chaos of nature and were bright souls in the Warp, capable of resisting its terrible influence.’…

But you've heftily implied it in the above.

I’d say the Gold Men were humanity who had a stable relationship with a ‘calm’ Warp.

By that argument, and the 40k "lore," your defining the Gold Men as being the same as the Shaman.  Further, that they could not have ended by M21 because, well, they died out way before that.  And the humans that followed (assuming that the Shaman were even human) were "harmonious," which even disregarding the dubious 'fluff' about humanity creating the Chaos Powers, seems certainly not correct.

The Stone Men were humans who had a weak relationship to the Warp, severed by the tumult caused by the Eldar Fall.

By the above, this would then make the Eldar Fall start in the eighth millennium BCE, which would make the rest of the universe have some problems, and put all of the background on shaky ground.


Overall, there seems to be the seeds of an interesting concept in there, but there are too many glitches with the established 'fluff' (insofar anything is established in the 'fluff').  Yet the one problem that persists is trying to make the Journal of Keeper Cripias as fact rather than allegory.  I personally don't have a problem of using it as a source of potential information, but... Some of the concepts just don't seem to fit, that's all.

Kage

[Luddite]

Ahh...some solid hits on the Aunt Sally there, Kage old boy.

Nice one.

Well, i've put up some ideas...anyone care to step in with theirs?

[CELS]

I will be making a longer reply to this tomorrow or one of the coming days, but now I have to be off to work. Of course, it'd be nice if someone picked up the gauntlet laid down by Luddite and attempted to present a new elaborated timeline.

I will say this though; this is not as simply as the Journal of Keeper Cripias versus Ian Watson's Space Marine. (If it was, some of you may know that I don't hold Watson's novels in particular high regard) There are other sources, because the history of Mankind in 40k is something that has been written about in numerous places, though normally only in bits and pieces. The Horus Heresy publications by Black Library included some extra information about the various pre-Imperial ages, but it was actually just a variation of what we knew before. If you read through the legendary compilation of Warhammer 40,000 background made by fans (and since outlawed by GW), or read all the various sources from which it was compiled (such as 40k rulebooks and background books, White Dwarf articles, etc) I think you'll find that there is more to the pre-Imperial history than the work of Alan Merrett, Ian Watson and the authors of the 3rd edition rulebook.

Alas, I don't have time to point to additional sources and quotes at the moment. And in the words of Vincent Vega...
"To be continued"