Men of Stone

[CELS]

Well, at the risk of being constructive, how's this;
It seems to me that while there is considerable disagreement in regards to the Age of Terra and the ancient history of Mankind, there is far less disagreement in regards to the Age of Technology itself. Which is handy, since the Age of Technology is the subject of this thread and the subject of the mini-project that I had suggested - namely, the exploration of the Age of Technology and the last years leading up to the Age of Strife.

So, without getting into further debates about Keeper Cripias, Solomon and the First Men of the Golden Race (I firmly believe that I have made my arguments in all areas clear enough already, so I give up clarifying myself further), perhaps we can focus on the period between M15 and M25? I know this does make it more difficult to come up with conspiracy theories leading back to King Solomon or the Stone Masons, but frankly, I'm not sure how else to proceed, unless we do it by vote and leave the losing party rather irked. Clearly, this is another area of the Warhammer 40,000 background that people feel strongly about.

I have written a summary of a viewpoint that I believe most of you will agree with - if not complete agreement then at least pretty close. I seem to be in absolute agreement with pretty much everything Malika and Dragonlord has suggested, and I don't think Earth Scorpion or Kage is far away either. One notable disagreement is the warp presence of the Golden Men, which Luddite has as considerable, to my understanding. Trusting Kage's sources (and quite liking the idea), I've gone with the version where the creation of the Emperor leaves humans with no psykers and very little warp presence for millennia to come, thus protecting it further from the predations of Chaos. Untill the end of the Dark Age and the beginning of the Age of Strife, of course.

Without further introduction...


The Age of Technology

The Golden Men
-   Based primarily on Terra and smaller colonies in the Sol system, but also found in the inner regions of the Segmentum Solar, having travelled to certain star systems with the use of sublight drives.
-   Fine of limb and strong of mind, the Golden Men improved their genepool with a combination of eugenic programs and genetic engineering. The Golden Men also engineered themselves in order to be able to survive cryogenic hibernation onboard starships. (Cryogenic hibernation is mentioned in the novel Xenos, though in that particular case it is used to sleep through winter on a world with an elliptic orbit)
-   Establishing Order and Civilisation and being of philosophical temperament and disposition, the Golden Men had achieved a tremendous collective wisdom as Mankind entered the Age of Technology in M15, due to a combination of experience and research. The Golden Men had a keen understanding of sociology and their civilisation was considerably more utopian than other predecessors or successors. (When the Emperor went about creating the Imperium, I would suggest that he had learned a lot from the Golden Men. When we read about the early Imperium in the Horus Heresy novels, it does seem in many ways utopian at first, at least at an ideological level. The media [i.e. remembrancers] is encouraged to record every aspect of the Great Crusade without censorship, Imperial officials [e.g. iterators] seem enlightened and educated. Science and philosophy seem to be the tools of humanity, rather than religion. A bit unoriginal to lay all the blame for Mankind’s woes on religion, but at least it’s not far fetched.)
-   In an attempt to improve themselves, the Golden Men achieve an unparalleled understanding of human physiology and the human genome. They create the foundation for the Emperor’s later work on the Primarchs, the Legio Custodes and the Legio Astartes.
-   While the Golden Men were technologically inferior to the Stone Men in many regards, they were still advanced (though not necessarily more advanced) compared to the Imperium of Man in M41.

The Stone Men
-   Based on Mars, the Stone Men quickly spread throughout the Segmentum Solar and beyond, leaving behind the Golden Men.
-   The Stone Men “evolved” (in loose terms) from the Golden Men on Mars. While there were genetic differences between the two races, Golden Men and Stone Men could still interbreed (and thus in biology and taxonomic terms, they were not necessarily different races as such. In other words, they were both homo sapiens, but with very different genepools)
-   The technological difference between the Golden Men and Iron Men was presumably rooted in different ideologies. In the ideology of the Stone Men, one might see traces of the tenets later seen in the Cult Mechanicus, but with a less religious and more practical undertone. The Stone Men might believe in the supremacy of human machines, but did not actually worship them. It would have been more of a philosophical school of thought than a religious creed. (And building on the idea by Destecado of free thinkers vs those willing to be led, it is possible that the Golden Men had more of an individualistic culture whereas the Stone Men had more of a collective culture. Eventually, the individualistic philosophies of the Golden Men diminished in popularity, and the philosophies of the Stone Men prevailed. In the modern Imperium, the collective social philosophies of the Stone Men seems more prevalent, as servants of the Imperium are encouraged to be faceless, silent and unthinking cogs in the machine that is the Imperium. Is it possible that the Adeptus Mechanicus actually influenced the philosophies of the Imperium on a galactic scale, and not just in the worlds of the Anargo sector? )


Psykers
-   Though human psykers are almost unheard of in the Age of Terra (not counting the descendants of the Emperor, such as Malcador), they start to reappear during the Age of Technology. Meanwhile, the warp presence of mankind grows increasingly strong.
-   The increased warp presence of human souls (and the related increase of human psykers) is related to the gradual Fall of the Eldar empire, and the slow creation of Slaanesh, which is causing a massive disturbance in the warp. It does take a while for human psykers to be discovered and officially recognised by the Golden and Stone Men, due to the fact that the first human psykers have very little power at all (bending spoons, forks and other utensils with their mind, but very little else at first)
-   The “evolution” of the human souls doesn’t exactly happen by ways of Darwinian natural selection. Instead, it is a case of the warp influencing humans while humans influence the warp, leading to a kind of “intelligent design”. (And as much as we want to avoid any clichés with ‘Chaos did it’, one can see why the Chaos gods would like humans to have a greater presence in the warp)


You'll notice I left out the Iron Men. For the moment, I'd like to leave them out, since they're a bit of a separate chapter. I do have one idea I'd like to air though, let me know what you think;
Obviously, there are many possible answers in regards to the war between the Stone Men and Iron Men. Self preservation and paranoia is an obvious one. Attack being the best defense. But Keeper Cripias wrote "for whatever reasons and differences in ideology", and this made me think of the legendary movie Blade Runner. In this movie, the moral sense of the so-called Replicants is so strong that the mere thought of some kind of immoral act creates a huge emotional response. If you've seen the movie, you'll recall the Voight-Kampff test, where the interviewer asks the subject disturbing questions or tells the subject disturbing stories to gauge their response. Basically, the Replicants have great difficulties imagining a scenario that goes against their moral code.

Now... the Iron Men were probably created with a very strict moral code to ensure that they never did anything bad, but what if their expectations were so high that humans failed to meet them? If they were taught not to do bad things, or if they learned this themselves when they evolved to a state of equality with the Stone Men, then how would they react if their allies and former masters showed gross flaws of morality. Wouldn't they be compelled to stop the humans from doing evil, and thus going to war?

I'm sure this is an unoriginal idea, since the idea of man vs machine has been explored by so many different authors, but I find it more fascinating if the machines declared war against humans because of ideological differences, rather than a simple act of self-preservation (as seen in Terminator, the Matrix, etc)

Thoughts please?

Just in a tiny bit of offtopicness, I'd say that it's the religion and the belief that makes Machine Spirits generate such a warp prescence.  To put it another way, Iron Men were soulless whereas Machine Spirits have a soul, but it's the name that does it.  If you took a humanoid Iron Man, and got people to believe that it was a gift of the Omnissiah and carefully clean it religiously with sacred oil, then it will build up a warp prescene. 
Shortly before the mainstream AdMech find you, and shut you down as a heretek, of course.

I have to say... that's one of the most original and interesting ideas regarding the Machine Spirit problem that I've seen for a long, long time. I will think about this. Maybe even incorporate it in my own view of 40k (the ultimate honour, if you didn't know )

[Dragon Lord]

I was responding to one of Dragon Lord's quotes, the "The Gold Men lived on islands separated by deep ocean that was too cold and wide for them to cross, so they built ships of stone to protect them on the journey" one.  Mind you, the term [citation needed] applies to it, so that was just theorising.

Yes that quote definitely requires a [citation needed] warning, until I can find/remember where I read it it is possible that it was an invention of my subconscious.

@CELS
As you said we seem to be quite firmly in agreement, I am very happy with everything between the horizontal lines.

(And as much as we want to avoid any clichés with ‘Chaos did it’, one can see why the Chaos gods would like humans to have a greater presence in the warp)

Quite, though if we were to talk about the Chaos Gods and any possible involvement by them I think Tzeentch would get the strongest mention, its just the sort of thing Tzeentch would enjoy doing.

Now... the Iron Men were probably created with a very strict moral code to ensure that they never did anything bad, but what if their expectations were so high that humans failed to meet them? If they were taught not to do bad things, or if they learned this themselves when they evolved to a state of equality with the Stone Men, then how would they react if their allies and former masters showed gross flaws of morality. Wouldn't they be compelled to stop the humans from doing evil, and thus going to war?

I'm sure this is an unoriginal idea, since the idea of man vs machine has been explored by so many different authors, but I find it more fascinating if the machines declared war against humans because of ideological differences, rather than a simple act of self-preservation (as seen in Terminator, the Matrix, etc)

Thoughts please?

Unoriginal yes, though that does not invalidate it.  The idea of artificial intelligences created with a very strict 'moral code' that could eventually lead them to rebel against humans to protect the humans from themselves was well explored by Isaac Asimov, the 'moral code' in that case being the Three Laws of Robotics.

But yes I think that pretty much every possible scenario involving artificial intelligences rebelling against their human masters has been thought of before so it is just a matter of deciding what we think would have been most likely the case here.

Hmm, here's an idea, what if the war between the Stone Men and the Iron Men was precipitated by the increasing power and appearance of psykers?  One could reasonably suggest that the Iron Men might have found it difficult to 'get their minds around' the concept of psykers and that this could have caused them to act to 'protect' humanity from psykers, this however was interpreted as a direct attack by the Stone Men, who then declared war on their creations.

Just in a tiny bit of offtopicness, I'd say that it's the religion and the belief that makes Machine Spirits generate such a warp prescence.  To put it another way, Iron Men were soulless whereas Machine Spirits have a soul, but it's the name that does it.  If you took a humanoid Iron Man, and got people to believe that it was a gift of the Omnissiah and carefully clean it religiously with sacred oil, then it will build up a warp prescene. 
Shortly before the mainstream AdMech find you, and shut you down as a heretek, of course.

I have to say... that's one of the most original and interesting ideas regarding the Machine Spirit problem that I've seen for a long, long time. I will think about this. Maybe even incorporate it in my own view of 40k (the ultimate honour, if you didn't know  )

I agree that is a very interesting idea, though presumably that would mean that for a tech priest to create an abominable intelligence they would have to believe themselves that it was going to be an abominable intelligence, not a machine spirit.

[Malika]

Hmm, here's an idea, what if the war between the Stone Men and the Iron Men was precipitated by the increasing power and appearance of psykers?  One could reasonably suggest that the Iron Men might have found it difficult to 'get their minds around' the concept of psykers and that this could have caused them to act to 'protect' humanity from psykers, this however was interpreted as a direct attack by the Stone Men, who then declared war on their creations.

This is an idea I like, it reminds me of how the military operated in many Latin American nations in the mid twentieth century. They fought/existed for their countries, not their people. This meant that once the people were trying to change things in their country (be it into a socialist/communist society or simply trying to improve the living standards) the army assumed that these people were a threat to the country which resulting in them attacking these people. The military in this case simply turned against it's own civilians.

Now how does this relate to our Iron Men against the Stone Men thing? Very simple, the manifestation of psykers was seen by the Iron Men as a threat to humanity, so in order to protect humanity they would have to turn against that impurity.

However, there are two problems with this theory:
-Psykers started to appear during the Age of Strife (they were also the cause for that era), the war between the Iron and Stone Men happened during the Age of Strife or before? I always assumed before but I could be mistaken...
-If the Iron Men were "protecting humanity" from the psykers, why did they turn on the Stone Men + the rest of humanity? Why didn't they just simply purge psykers like some sort of robotic witchhunters?

[CELS]

Hmm, again we think very much alike, Dragon Lord. After writing my last post, I came up with an alternative explanation to the war between Iron Men and Stone Men, but figured I'd wait to see what people had to say about my post as it was. (By the way, Malika, I assume you're in agreement with the above summary?)

I didn't have the exact same idea though. Instead of just attacking psykers because of their unnatural ability, what if the Iron Men started realising Mankind's vulnerability to Chaos? Granted, Mankind didn't really have problems with Chaos on a galactic scale untill the Age of Strife, but it might have started with a few episodes towards the end of the Age of Technology. Given the presumed intelligence of the Iron Men, I don't think they needed to see the entire galactic civilisation fall into anarchy before realising that Chaos was going to be a problem.

SPOILER ALERT : Don't read the following paragraph if you haven't read the novel 'Legion'
In the novel 'Legion' by Dan Abnett, the Primarchs Alpharius and Omegon are persuaded by the Cabal that it is best to destroy Mankind for the good of the galaxy, otherwise humans will be enslaved by Chaos for all eternity, along with the rest of the galaxy. This never made a whole lot of sense to me, unless one assumes that the Cabal used some kind of powerful mind spell on Alpharius and Omegon, because I think a Primarch would rather attempt the impossible rather than sentence the entire human race to extinction. However, it's certainly not as far fetched, in my eyes, that the Iron Men might be able to look past primitive concepts of race and agree that it is better for both themselves and the galaxy as a whole if Mankind were to be made extinct, lest Chaos take over the galaxy.
END OF SPOILERS

Of course, we could turn it up a notch and say that perhaps there wasn't a single reason for this huge war. How many wars in the modern history of mankind have been started for a single reason? There are different political and philosophical factions within the Imperium, different stances towards Xenos, and within the Inquisition there are different stances towards Chaos. Perhaps the Iron Men were also divided into different factions? Their equivalents of Monodominants might seek to destroy all humans, whereas their equivalents of Amalthians sought only to assassinate all psykers.

Hmph, this thread wasn't supposed to turn into a discussion about the Iron Men, but oh well...

[Dragon Lord]

However, there are two problems with this theory:
-Psykers started to appear during the Age of Strife (they were also the cause for that era), the war between the Iron and Stone Men happened during the Age of Strife or before? I always assumed before but I could be mistaken...
-If the Iron Men were "protecting humanity" from the psykers, why did they turn on the Stone Men + the rest of humanity? Why didn't they just simply purge psykers like some sort of robotic witchhunters?

To the first point, according to the timeline from the Horus Heresy novels psykers were first documented amongst the human race at least 3 millenia before the Age of Strife, allowing plenty of time for the Iron Men to form the conclusion that psykers posed a grave risk to humanity.

To the second point the psyker purge as some sort of robotic witch-hunters is how I had invisaged the war possibly starting.  The Stone Men did not take kindly however to the Iron Men embarking on what , to them, would have amounted to a program of forceful eugenics.

I didn't have the exact same idea though. Instead of just attacking psykers because of their unnatural ability, what if the Iron Men started realising Mankind's vulnerability to Chaos? Granted, Mankind didn't really have problems with Chaos on a galactic scale untill the Age of Strife, but it might have started with a few episodes towards the end of the Age of Technology. Given the presumed intelligence of the Iron Men, I don't think they needed to see the entire galactic civilisation fall into anarchy before realising that Chaos was going to be a problem.

That is also a reasonable idea, a different variation, and would obviously have led to immediate and direct conflict with the entire Stone Man civilization.

Of course, we could turn it up a notch and say that perhaps there wasn't a single reason for this huge war. How many wars in the modern history of mankind have been started for a single reason? There are different political and philosophical factions within the Imperium, different stances towards Xenos, and within the Inquisition there are different stances towards Chaos. Perhaps the Iron Men were also divided into different factions? Their equivalents of Monodominants might seek to destroy all humans, whereas their equivalents of Amalthians sought only to assassinate all psykers.

This is also possible, and in fact is again similar to stuff written by Asimov, he had various different philosophies arise amongst the robots based on different interpretations of the laws of robotics.
This could also explain small enclaves like the Mezzan Empire, in which Iron Men and humanity continued to live alongside each other harmoniously.

[EarthScorpion]

To an extent, too, I wouldn't just put it as human vs Iron Man.  I'd really put it more as a series of competing human groups, with various levels of technocracy and organic integration in society, all politicking with each other.  That would mean that the Iron Men were on most sides in the wars; the one they were raised/programmed/chose to be on (because I'd doubt the efficiency of loyalty programming on a truly sentient machine; sentience involves the capacity to make higher than second order evaluation of one's motives, and thus just programming them to be loyal is unlikely to work.)  The backlash against them might have been more a sign of a backlash against the people who had been using them more, the more technocratic factions.

Actually, that's a point that I'd like to very strongly put across.  Asimov's Three Laws are not a sound basis for a plausible AI.  The level of value judgement required for the First Law requires that the entity be already sentient and able to judge for itself.  The Second Law is easy to programme, by comparison, although a rather stupid idea (obey every single human?  Especially when there is no practical way to programme a First Law), and the Third Law is a rather easy deal if you can build in a pleasure/pain system to reward/dissuade them, and doesn't even require sentience.  Really, I'd model them like Ian M Bank's Culture.  You raise the entity in a manner parallel to that which you would raise an infant, exposing it to stimuli and linking them with the idea of reward/punishment.  For example, in the Culture series, Minds (really, really, hyperinteligent AIs) have been far beyond the comprehension of any humanoid to build for many generations.  But the first few generations were friendly to "humanity", and so they "raised" their decendents to be friendly, even if they view them more as pets than masters.

[Philip S]

Hmm, here's an idea, what if the war between the Stone Men and the Iron Men was precipitated by the increasing power and appearance of psykers?  One could reasonably suggest that the Iron Men might have found it difficult to 'get their minds around' the concept of psykers and that this could have caused them to act to 'protect' humanity from psykers, this however was interpreted as a direct attack by the Stone Men, who then declared war on their creations.

I think the impact of a Psyker epidemic is a good hook to hand a rebellion, and is indeed the path I followed for my own musings on the subject.

I posted some thoughts on my site. Quick overview: There is a Psyker epidemic. Regular humans turn on the Psykers and fight. The Iron Men who do not wish to harm humans leave them too it. Psykers start to do well and enslave humanity and then start on the Iron Men which breaks their alliance and they (Iron men+machines) leave. Technology starts to fail and humans go back to worshipping Psykers as 'gods'. Then the Psykers loose power and everything falls apart. During the age of strife the history of events get twisted and the Iron men are blamed, and as there are no Iron Men about the myth is that humans won a 'war'. There was a war but not with the Iron Men! It also neatly explains the total crash of technology and how it came to be so rare (it got up and walked away and took all it's toys with it, the rest was destroyed by rampant possessed Psykers)

My 2p

Philip

[Destecado]

Well, at the risk of being constructive, how's this;
It seems to me that while there is considerable disagreement in regards to the Age of Terra and the ancient history of Mankind, there is far less disagreement in regards to the Age of Technology itself…<abridged>

So, without getting into further debates about Keeper Cripias, Solomon and the First Men of the Golden Race (I firmly believe that I have made my arguments in all areas clear enough already, so I give up clarifying myself further), perhaps we can focus on the period between M15 and M25?

Fine, let’s not discuss the origins of the Men of Gold and Stone.  We at least agree that the base of power for the Men of Gold was Old Earth and the most likely the base of power for the Men of Stone was Mars.   

The Golden Men

Fine of limb and strong of mind, the Golden Men improved their genepool with a combination of eugenic programs and genetic engineering. The Golden Men also engineered themselves in order to be able to survive cryogenic hibernation onboard starships.

What?  I agree that during the time in which Earth and Mars became separated by warp storms (during the Age of Strife) such eugenics programs and genetic engineering may have taken place, but what basis do you have for making such sciences the providence of the Men of Gold during the Age of Technology?  So, are they the one who also came up with the cryogenic units, whish would be placed upon the ships made by the Stone Men or are you implying as well that the Men of Gold made their own ships? 

To use an example from our own world, the federal government of the United States, down not make its own planes, ships and space craft.  They contract with private firms, in the commercial sector, to build either the entire craft or components for said craft.   Even with civilian contracts, these firms have lobbyists and spend millions to influence politicians.   Government contracts are still their bread and butter.   

The government keeps their power in check by regulations and legislation.  Anti-Trust regulations were put in place in part to make sure that power in any given industry could not concentrated in an individual’s or small groups hands.   Government likes to keep such control for themselves.   Part of the reason that corporations move operations to foreign countries is to avoid the regulations legislated by a governmental body in another country.   Instead of breaking the laws, they can avoid them by going where they don’t apply.


It’s interesting that in light of the current financial crisis, governments are allowing large mergers of financial companies.  The effort is to prevent the economy from going belly up, which could put them out of power.   In doing so however, they are skating close to some of the anti-trust regulations they set up.  Example: the potential merger of Lloyds and HBOS (Halifax Bank of Scotland) would create a bank with a 28 percent share of the U.K. mortgage market.

This may be an unpopular route to take with regard to the discussion at hand, but maybe the difference between the Golden Men and the Stone Men is governmental vs. private sector or industrial.   I know that this has been touched upon before, but I think we need to consider it for the purposes of our discussion.   Your thought of competing technologies just doesn’t sit well.   

I think to get an idea of how the power may have shifted to the Stone Men we need to look at the monopolies that existed in such industries as oil, steel and the railroad.   This was not just about running all of the railroads or steel plants.  It was about controlling the various processes and businesses related to the industry.  We are also making the assumption, that the Gold Men and Stone Men are monolithic organizations. 

If however they describe world outlooks, there is room for much conflict and dealings within and between the two groups.   If we assume that the Golden Men represent the governmental body (s) of the Old Earth, then it is possible to assume that they controlled the military…or if still more than one government at that time militaries.   

Control of the military would allow them to enforce regulations and keep any colony (within the solar system) in line.   Part of the reason that Earth and the Gold Men might begin to lose power is the extra solar colonies.  The distance provided and the difficulty to reach them could mean that a rebellion could take place and not be known for a century or more…like in the current 40K universe.  The difference between that time and the time of the original colonies, is that earth did not have the “economies of scale” the Imperium has.   Old Earth and the Golden Men could draw on the power of the other Sol system colonies to keep another colony in line (like we do with countries one Earth in the real world).   

If however, one of these extra solar colonies revolted, it would be far more difficult to uproot a sufficient military force to go to that system and quell the rebellion (by generation ship).   It does not hurt if there are also troubles going on in the Sol system, which make it unfeasible or unwise to send off such a large force on a mission that may or may not succeed or which will take longer than the politician will be in office to accomplish.   It would be very hard to sell such a mission to the constituents at home. 

The lack of warp drive gave these colonies the time they needed to grow and be competition for the centralized government of earth.   So it is the technological curve, which dooms the burgeoning Empire of the Golden Men.   Where politics fails, economics can still prevail.   Even in today’s world, other countries might not agree with us politically, but they still buy our products.  One of the first ways that countries attempt to adjust the political views of foreign leaders is through embargos.  The thought being that if we make your life difficult enough, you will come around to our way of thinking. Organizations within the Stone Men could have circumvented these embargoes to aid the rebelling parties (gaining good will within that colony, country).  They could also have used it as a political tool.   If a country were to raise taxes or pass some regulation which would affect their business, the company could threaten or make it appear that they were going to move the production somewhere else.   

This is a lot to absorb, so for the moment, I am only going to touch briefly on the Iron Men.  Part of the beginning of the Iron Men may have been as semi-sentient long range probes.  Why send a generation ship on an expedition which may or may not pan out, when you can send a probe that can do the job of humans.  We already do this with probes to other planets and into deep space.   


One other thought.  For the emergence of psykers, I think that we should look at the RPG Aberrant.  It deals with the emergence of psychic powers with current day human society.  Some people seek to use their powers like prototypical super heroes.  Others use them for personal gains.   I think that shows such as Heroes and others which look at the daily lives of “people with super powers” came out of the ground work laid down by games like Aberrant. 

As to the emergence of psykers.   Maybe it had to do with the continuing evolution of the human animal.   It could also be a side effect of early use of warp drive.   Maybe the Gellar fields and the forces at work were not completely understood.  Maybe it had an unforeseen effect on the physiology of the individual or made changes in their genetics, which were passed on to their children. 

[Destecado]

Thoughts on Iron Men:

Well the Journal of Keeper Cripias (or my "literal" interpretation of it) has gotten a bad rap, but there might be something that may point to what may have caused the falling out between the Stone Men and the Iron...or at least factions among the Iron men.   The journal makes reference to humans encountering alien races during the Dark Age of Technology..."Weapons of great destruction cow the aggressions of alien enemies, pushing back the frontiers of Mankind's domains"...

It could be inferred that the Iron Men were used as soldiers in these wars...either as ground troops or perhaps as fully automated fighting ships.  Perhaps some form of technology assimilated from one of these alien races caused a change in certain Iron Men.  This could also explain the Adeptus Mechanicus' penchant for wanting to destroy or prevent the use of all xeno tech.  If it was something that proved infectious...could be transfered from Iron Man to Iron Man, it may also help to explain why they destroyed not only the ones who "rebelled", but also those who remained loyal.   

[Luddite]

Thoughts on Iron Men:

Well the Journal of Keeper Cripias (or my "literal" interpretation of it) has gotten a bad rap, but there might be something that may point to what may have caused the falling out between the Stone Men and the Iron...or at least factions among the Iron men.   The journal makes reference to humans encountering alien races during the Dark Age of Technology..."Weapons of great destruction cow the aggressions of alien enemies, pushing back the frontiers of Mankind's domains"...

It could be inferred that the Iron Men were used as soldiers in these wars...either as ground troops or perhaps as fully automated fighting ships.  Perhaps some form of technology assimilated from one of these alien races caused a change in certain Iron Men.  This could also explain the Adeptus Mechanicus' penchant for wanting to destroy or prevent the use of all xeno tech.  If it was something that proved infectious...could be transfered from Iron Man to Iron Man, it may also help to explain why they destroyed not only the ones who "rebelled", but also those who remained loyal.   

Thats certainly a possible interpretation and would actually fit with current 'high tech' thinking on 'robot soldiers' taking the place of humans on the battlefield (drones, remotes, etc.)

It would also fit with the apparently subservient role taken initially by the Iron Men.

How does it address their apparent rise in status to become the equals of the Stone Men though?

I'm also not too sure about the links to the 'Xenos' thing.  I'd see human relations with aliens at that time less absolute; less dogmatic than it is in 41M...which feeds into the earlier incarnations of the game, including all manner of wierdness (*cough*Squats*cough*, zoats, slann, Jokaero, beastmen in the Imperial guard, Eldar pirates, cockney Orks, space skeletons, etc...)

Perhaps a silightly different approach to take on that is the retcon explanation used over in the Star Trek universe in relation to the Klingons.  The ST films and ST tng has the Klingons all buffed up with boney heads etc.  They looked evidently somewhat different to the face-painted goateed (proxy Russian / Communists) seen in the Kirk-era Star Trek.  the retcon contends that the Klingons genetically engineered 'demi-Klingons' that looked much more like aliens that contacted (in this case humans), to facilitate dimplomacy and espionage.

So maybe you could see the Iron Men in your 'verse as genetically engineered, parhaps to look like Eldar, to fit in better and make interspecies relations go more smoothly?

Hence as the whole 'Strife' deal started to bite, and the Imperium become more racist and Xenophobic, these 'Iron Man halfbreeds' were no longer acceptable in the drive for Imperial genetic purity, harking back to the Gold Men of the 'Golden Age'.

??

Its an interesting idea at least, but for me the Gold Man / Stone  Man / Iron Man transitions are still intimately tied to fluctuations in the warp.  the Warp just seems to me to be a nice catalyst for change (i don't believe that fundamental change is spontaneous without  stimulus), and seems to be a key meme and narrative element to the 40k 'verse...but that's my take.  How and why i'm still working on of course 

[Kage2020]

It doesn't seem that we're going to find any resolution to the topic of this thread so, for the moment, I would suggest that we let it sink to the bottom for a while and then, later, if we have some clearer thoughts or approaches, come back to it.  At the moment people are just arguing in circles...

Kage

[Dragon Lord]

To an extent, too, I wouldn't just put it as human vs Iron Man.  I'd really put it more as a series of competing human groups, with various levels of technocracy and organic integration in society, all politicking with each other.  That would mean that the Iron Men were on most sides in the wars; the one they were raised/programmed/chose to be on (because I'd doubt the efficiency of loyalty programming on a truly sentient machine; sentience involves the capacity to make higher than second order evaluation of one's motives, and thus just programming them to be loyal is unlikely to work.)  The backlash against them might have been more a sign of a backlash against the people who had been using them more, the more technocratic factions.

That is also a possibility, and we do have our own Mezzan Empire that continued to have humans and Iron Men living alongside each other.  As with all conflicts the actuality would I'm sure have been more complex than the generalised view, but given that it resulted in the destruction of the Iron Men we can at least say that most of the Iron Men were on the side of the losing faction.

Actually, that's a point that I'd like to very strongly put across.  Asimov's Three Laws are not a sound basis for a plausible AI.  The level of value judgement required for the First Law requires that the entity be already sentient...     ...even if they view them more as pets than masters.

I wasn't particularly suggesting that the Iron Men would have been instilled with a version of the Three Laws I was just using them as a useful example of a moral code for machines.  Having said that though I thought the fact that sentience is required for a proper understanding of the First Law was sort of the point.
Your idea of the AIs being 'raised' to have certain views etc, is a perfectly suitable alternative, its a more 'natural'/human like way of instilling a moral code than direct programming, but was much the same end result.

I posted some thoughts on my site. Quick overview: There is a Psyker epidemic. Regular humans turn on the Psykers and fight. The Iron Men who do not wish to harm humans leave them too it. Psykers start to do well and enslave humanity and then start on the Iron Men which breaks their alliance and they (Iron men+machines) leave. Technology starts to fail and humans go back to worshipping Psykers as 'gods'. Then the Psykers loose power and everything falls apart. During the age of strife the history of events get twisted and the Iron men are blamed, and as there are no Iron Men about the myth is that humans won a 'war'. There was a war but not with the Iron Men! It also neatly explains the total crash of technology and how it came to be so rare (it got up and walked away and took all it's toys with it, the rest was destroyed by rampant possessed Psykers)

Interesting idea, though it poses the question of where did the Iron Men go?  It would also be interesting as to why the Iron Men did not get involved in the psyker war and chose simply to leave.

What?  I agree that during the time in which Earth and Mars became separated by warp storms (during the Age of Strife) such eugenics programs and genetic engineering may have taken place, but what basis do you have for making such sciences the providence of the Men of Gold during the Age of Technology?  So, are they the one who also came up with the cryogenic units, whish would be placed upon the ships made by the Stone Men or are you implying as well that the Men of Gold made their own ships?  

The basis for making biosciences more the providence of the Gold Men is the whole 'fine of limb and strong of mind' thing from the Journal of Keeper Cripias.  It also serves to distinguish them from the apparently more mechanically inclined Stone Men.  Regarding the Gold Men making their own ships I think that with the first extra solar colonies being founded some 5 millenia before the Stone Men came to ascendancy at the end of the Golden Age it seems likely that at the very least the first generation ships were constructed by the Gold Men.  The fact that the Journal of Keeper Cripias mentions the Stone Men creating technologies that allowed them and the Gold Men to expand into the stars and warp drive was invented some time around M18, around the time the Stone Men would probably have been beginning to become a major force seems more than coincidental.  It seemed to me that the Gold Men had probably created the generation ships which allowed them to colonise nearby systems, but then the Stone Men created warp drive, making interstellar travel much easier, and by the same token granting the Stone Men significant power.

Regarding your ideas relating to governmental/corporate organisation on the part of the Gold Men/Stone Men it is quite possible that there might have been differences in that line between the two but I'm not entirely sure what effect it would have.

If however, one of these extra solar colonies revolted, it would be far more difficult to uproot a sufficient military force to go to that system and quell the rebellion (by generation ship).   It does not hurt if there are also troubles going on in the Sol system, which make it unfeasible or unwise to send off such a large force on a mission that may or may not succeed or which will take longer than the politician will be in office to accomplish.   It would be very hard to sell such a mission to the constituents at home.  

As far as this and your other points about the extra solar colonies goes the extra solar colonies were, until the invention of warp drive, separated from Earth by generations of travel, this meant that the colonies were, and had to be, completely independant of Earth and the Sol system, so I don't really think one can make arguments regarding trade or rebellions within the colonies prior to the advent of warp drive.

Well the Journal of Keeper Cripias (or my "literal" interpretation of it) has gotten a bad rap, but there might be something that may point to what may have caused the falling out between the Stone Men and the Iron...or at least factions among the Iron men.   The journal makes reference to humans encountering alien races during the Dark Age of Technology..."Weapons of great destruction cow the aggressions of alien enemies, pushing back the frontiers of Mankind's domains"...

It could be inferred that the Iron Men were used as soldiers in these wars...either as ground troops or perhaps as fully automated fighting ships.  Perhaps some form of technology assimilated from one of these alien races caused a change in certain Iron Men.  This could also explain the Adeptus Mechanicus' penchant for wanting to destroy or prevent the use of all xeno tech.  If it was something that proved infectious...could be transfered from Iron Man to Iron Man, it may also help to explain why they destroyed not only the ones who "rebelled", but also those who remained loyal.  

Some sort of xenotech computer virus corrupting the Iron Men?  Hmm, interesting possibility.  Not sure if I would entirely support the idea, I favour the ideological conflict idea myself, but nonetheless it is an interesting idea.

It doesn't seem that we're going to find any resolution to the topic of this thread so, for the moment, I would suggest that we let it sink to the bottom for a while and then, later, if we have some clearer thoughts or approaches, come back to it.  At the moment people are just arguing in circles...

You do have a point there, but as I've already written the above reply I might as well post it.

[CELS]

Well, as much as I hate to sound bitter or accusational, I don't think that it should be a problem to come to an agreement about the Age of Technology per se. I just think it's a question of being a bit structured and trying to be constructive rather than simply posting a number of ideas without actually building on them and looking to create a compromise between all the different ideas.

This was why I posted a summary of what had been posted previously, and I was hoping more people would at least give a thumbs up or thumbs down to the summary, so we had a foundation to build on. I guess only Dragon Lord understood this was the point, or perhaps others didn't feel like playing that game. (Again, hoping not to sound bitter or accusational)

But yeah. I think it's just a matter of whether or not we can play ball. If we can compromise, be creative and be goal oriented, I think we can work something out, despite our many different interpretations (or not so different, as I suggested above).

If, on the other hand, we keep talking past each other and having multiple simultaneous discussions, then I agree we're not going to get anywhere. So I'm hoping that you guys would give a verdict on the above summary, and if everyone hates it, perhaps someone else can step up and provide an alternative that we can agree on, and then go from there.

What?  I agree that during the time in which Earth and Mars became separated by warp storms (during the Age of Strife) such eugenics programs and genetic engineering may have taken place, but what basis do you have for making such sciences the providence of the Men of Gold during the Age of Technology? 

Dragon Lord explained this pretty well. It's to distinguish these two different factions a bit more, rather than having one as old and good and the other as younger and better, in all areas. I also think it helps explain why the Emperor stayed on Earth, the old home of the Golden Race, to work on the Primarch project and its derivative projects. I guess I might be accused of going down GW's thematic route, but the importance of themes in telling a good story should not be underestimated, I think. Though again, I'm not suggesting that it's as simple as Golden Race = organic yoda people and Stone Men = industrial darth vader people.

So, are they the one who also came up with the cryogenic units, whish would be placed upon the ships made by the Stone Men or are you implying as well that the Men of Gold made their own ships? 
To use an example from our own world, the federal government of the United States, down not make its own planes, ships and space craft.  They contract with private firms, in the commercial sector, to build either the entire craft or components for said craft.   Even with civilian contracts, these firms have lobbyists and spend millions to influence politicians.   Government contracts are still their bread and butter.

Well, I haven't quite got as far as thinking about the exact mechanics in either of the two societies. Indeed, we haven't really discussed if the Golden Men and Stone Men were like separate nations or just separate ethnic groups within a single nation, or if it was completely different. All I'm doing is drawing a few dots (Golden Men, biological technology, Space Marines, cryogenics) and connecting them with a few lines. If we can agree on the basics, I'm sure it'll be easier to start discussing how their civilisation was structured and how their politics worked.

We are also making the assumption, that the Gold Men and Stone Men are monolithic organizations.

I haven't heard anyone make that claim.

If the Golden Men vs Stone Men is simply a matter of governmental vs private sector, how do you account for any physiological differences between the two groups? How do you account for what sounds like completely different ideologies? Or didn't you get that impression while reading the Journal?

It's probably the romantic and philosopher in me, but I really don't find it appealing to see the conflict between Stone Men and Golden Men as a purely political and economical struggle, nor to see the conflict between Stone Men and Iron Men as a technological failure. Perhaps because I am interested in different ideologies and philosophies, I'm interested in ethics and morality, and so I like to see it through those lenses. I guess I have a lot in common with some of the classic sci-fi authors in that way - technology is used as a mirror in which to analyse humanity and modern ['spiritual'] problems. In Blade Runner (based on the 1968 novel by Philip Dick), for example, there's the attempt to define humanity. If the Iron Men rebelled against the Stone Men for ideological reasons, we get into the debate of human nature, how and why it deviates from our apparent ideals. To stand face to face with a robot programmed (or raised) with the ideals you've taught it is to stand face to face with your own ideals, and I think there's a certain poetic sense of tragedy to see mankind face its final test of being confronted with that and then ultimately fail to live up to its own ideals and face destruction for it. The lesson to be learned is rather hopeless and negative and thus in keeping with the darkness of the 40k universe. (Yes, yes, Kage. Grimdark and emo, if you must... )

Again, I admit my ideas to be unoriginal, simplistic and banal, but techno-babble and political/economical explanations don't move me at all.

For what it's worth though, if you look at WW2 with only an economical perspective, you're going to miss out a lot of the big picture. On the flip side, if you look at WW2 with only a philosophical perspective and neglect the politics and economical background, you're also going to miss out.

[Malika]

"Zwijgen is toestemmen" (rough translation: Silence is agreement) 

I don't have any real problems with the summary you wrote so far. Personally I'm not too fond of the Golden Men being more aligned to the Warp or that the Golden and Stone Men have some sort of class relationship (how very Marxist) with each other. Like you posted earlier; you, me and Dragon Lord are pretty much on the same line when it comes to this subject.

If you do want some commentary:

-   Establishing Order and Civilisation and being of philosophical temperament and disposition, the Golden Men had achieved a tremendous collective wisdom as Mankind entered the Age of Technology in M15, due to a combination of experience and research. The Golden Men had a keen understanding of sociology and their civilisation was considerably more utopian than other predecessors or successors. (When the Emperor went about creating the Imperium, I would suggest that he had learned a lot from the Golden Men. When we read about the early Imperium in the Horus Heresy novels, it does seem in many ways utopian at first, at least at an ideological level. The media [i.e. remembrancers] is encouraged to record every aspect of the Great Crusade without censorship, Imperial officials [e.g. iterators] seem enlightened and educated. Science and philosophy seem to be the tools of humanity, rather than religion. A bit unoriginal to lay all the blame for Mankind’s woes on religion, but at least it’s not far fetched.)

The Emperor made sure his empire was enlightened. Ok...that I can understand and I can also understand that religion is seen as the main reason why this is gone. However, I don't agree with that. The enlightenment didn't go away because religion showed it's ugly face but because the Emperor was gone. With the Emperor being mortally wounded he left a void in the Imperium. When he was still around he could fill that "void" with a certain purpose: advancements in science, philosophy, technology and so on. Without him able to fill that void humanity looked for something else to give them that feeling of "completion", this comes in the form of religion. Now you'll see that it is not religion which is the cause of the problem, it was simply a (bad) solution for the problem which has now caused not only other problems but keep our same problem (lack of enlightenment) in place.

-   While the Golden Men were technologically inferior to the Stone Men in many regards, they were still advanced (though not necessarily more advanced) compared to the Imperium of Man in M41.

I don't know if it was Kage that posted it here (or another 40k forum) or something I vaguely remember from some lecture at my university, but isn't it so that different cultures have different aspects of technology on which they focus? This means that the Golden Men might have been way more advanced that the Stone Men in many aspects while in other aspects they were completely inferior compared to the Men of Stone. Get my drift? "Cultures" (not sure if we could call our Golden and Stone Men that) focus on certain technological developments which are in their best interest. This of course makes one wonder why the Necrontyr never looked into genetics to cure themselves from their short and painful lives, but ok...it's GW we're talking about here so what else can we expect...

-   The Stone Men “evolved” (in loose terms) from the Golden Men on Mars. While there were genetic differences between the two races, Golden Men and Stone Men could still interbreed (and thus in biology and taxonomic terms, they were not necessarily different races as such. In other words, they were both homo sapiens, but with very different genepools)

So this means that the Golden Men and Stone Men are like ethnicities? If they do have genetics in common they might be considered a race. If we look at humans for example we don't have race, one African American might have more in common (genetically speaking) with a Japanese man who he never met before than with another African American.

-   The technological difference between the Golden Men and Iron Men was presumably rooted in different ideologies. In the ideology of the Stone Men, one might see traces of the tenets later seen in the Cult Mechanicus, but with a less religious and more practical undertone. The Stone Men might believe in the supremacy of human machines, but did not actually worship them. It would have been more of a philosophical school of thought than a religious creed. (And building on the idea by Destecado of free thinkers vs those willing to be led, it is possible that the Golden Men had more of an individualistic culture whereas the Stone Men had more of a collective culture. Eventually, the individualistic philosophies of the Golden Men diminished in popularity, and the philosophies of the Stone Men prevailed. In the modern Imperium, the collective social philosophies of the Stone Men seems more prevalent, as servants of the Imperium are encouraged to be faceless, silent and unthinking cogs in the machine that is the Imperium. Is it possible that the Adeptus Mechanicus actually influenced the philosophies of the Imperium on a galactic scale, and not just in the worlds of the Anargo sector?)

Interesting concept, especially the last part in which the Adeptus Mechanicus' influence on the philosophies of the Imperium are looked into. If we stick to the idea Terra was primarily Golden Men territory and Mars was Stone Men territory we could conclude that the alliance between Terra and Mars (the Imperium and the Adeptus Mechanicus) could be partly seen as some sort of fusion between the Golden Men and Stone Men. Both their cultures/ideas/etc. changed because of the contacts that have been established. Perhaps we could also relate this to the Imperium as a whole in which in the beginning the beliefs of the Golden Men (individualism etc) were more popular because of the Emperor's presence while later on the Stone Men's ideology started to obtain more influence (collectivism, religion, etc). Of course these aren't "purist" versions of those two ideologies but completely evolved/warped/changed versions of the original since the original Stone and Golden Men were simply gone.

-   The increased warp presence of human souls (and the related increase of human psykers) is related to the gradual Fall of the Eldar empire, and the slow creation of Slaanesh, which is causing a massive disturbance in the warp.

So wait, humanity's psychic abilities start to manifest themselves because of the gradual Fall of the Eldar empire or does the increased warp presence of human souls also influence the Eldar Fall (birth of Slaanesh), if the latter is (also) the case it would mean that humanity is partly responsible for the destruction of the Eldar empire. One could then only assume that the Eldar would be very...very pissed off (understatement) at humanity...

It does take a while for human psykers to be discovered and officially recognised by the Golden and Stone Men, due to the fact that the first human psykers have very little power at all (bending spoons, forks and other utensils with their mind, but very little else at first)

How very X-Files! 

[Kage2020]

I would rather that we had something that all of us - as much as possible - agreed with rather than "no one has anything better that we can agree on, so they stay silent, so we go with that..."  For example, I find Destecado's ideas the most intriguing in many ways, but in my mind they're the furthest away from the 'fluff' so I find it difficult to actually agree with them.

Guess I'm going to search back a while to "the summary" and see what shows up.


The Golden Men
I think that with this summary we should stray away from the fossilisation of the "Gold Society" as utopian.  In this, I feel, some of Destecado's scientific uniformitarianism might be useful.  The other item that springs out of this description is the weakness of the difference between the Gold and Stone men.  I'll get to that with specific quotes that I compiled while reading through the description.

Based primarily on Terra and smaller colonies in the Sol system, but also found in the inner regions of the Segmentum Solar, having travelled to certain star systems with the use of sublight drives.

Aye.  Restricting them to a single world would be a mistake, in my mind.  I don't think that it makes it any harder to interject "conspiracy theories" of the good kind, which are so described only to differentiate them from the normal conspiracy theories that show up on Warseer, 40kOnline, and so on.

Fine of limb and strong of mind, the Golden Men improved their genepool with a combination of eugenic programs and genetic engineering.

One possibility that I didn't mention - primarily because I didn't want to get mired in another one of "this type" of argument - is looking towards a non-genetic technological explanation for this description.  Actually, perhaps not, but perhaps an addendum.  We're talking sublight generation ships here, but are we forgetting that it is not necessary to assume that they actually had anti-grav technologies.  (And forgive me if I'm now just reiterating older ideas.)  Thus, we could be approaching either physiological adaptation or genetic tampering tending towards transhumanism, or the deliberate modification of a given species for a given function.

So, the closest to what you're arguing, CELS, would be an extension of the genetic engineering to incorporate this rather than taking the "Golden Ageist" idea that they were necessarily "beautiful" or whatever.  They are "long limbed" because of the lack of impact upon the human physiology by gravity, and "strong of mind" primarily by comparison - leading an ascetic lifestyle as the idle their way between the stars.

Extending this idea, one other possibility is that the Men of Stone refers to either the ones that follow - those designed for life on planets - or refers to both the original species (perhaps with some other modifications), or specifically for these people designed for the "Stone" of the planets, or the planet-bound Man.

I would like to point out that we have two possibilities here, the first which fits in with CELS' idea but does not inherently create a "Golden Age" society (although one can see how it might be misinterpreted), and the second concept, which readily identifies the Men of Stone but might be inherently contradictory.  I'll see to that when I get to it.

On the Culture of the Golden Men
If we assume - and you know what they say about making an assumption - that the Golden Men are those individuals that nursed the generation ships along, rather than those that might have entered cryogenic suspension (Men of Stone for planets, and also because they're a corpsicle and nigh on stone as well ) then they're not going to be doing a huge amount of, well, anything.  Maintaining systems, etc.  Might as well extend the cerebral games: philosophy, art, etc.  Yet it is a "ship-based" culture, with communications between other ships taking years, so it might also be a "variable" culture.

Or not. 

I just feel that it might be interesting to remove ones self from a "Golden Age" society because they are, perhaps not unreasonably, described through "Golden Ageist" memes.  In addition, I don't see this as a replacement to the concepts presented, merely an elaboration.

The Stone Men
This seems to be broadly consistent with the suggestion above, rather than contradictory, though it doesn't inherently mean that they must have come from Mars.  At the same time, with Mars being ruther up the gravitational well (dodgy, I know) it might have been the staging point for colonisation via generation ships.

If Golden Men are in essence dominated by those generation ships, then it's not unreasonable that they are replaced, both in the sense of population, but also in the sense of ultimately their "culture" being invalidated by warp drive.

Psykers
The Malcador thing is a new one to me, especially since the only descendants that we had previously heard about were the Sensei.  What is the source, out of interest?  (Note that I'm being inquisitive, rather than asking you to defend your position. )

The increased warp presence of human souls (and the related increase of human psykers) is related to the gradual Fall of the Eldar empire, and the slow creation of Slaanesh, which is causing a massive disturbance in the warp. It does take a while for human psykers to be discovered and officially recognised by the Golden and Stone Men, due to the fact that the first human psykers have very little power at all (bending spoons, forks and other utensils with their mind, but very little else at first)

Okay, that's not unreasonable.  We leave psykers to spoon benders and then have their "emergence" as a form of wave supposition, with the tumult in the warp resonating with the souls of some of the Men of Stone...

You'll notice I left out the Iron Men. For the moment, I'd like to leave them out, since they're a bit of a separate chapter. I do have one idea I'd like to air though, let me know what you think;

To be honest, there doesn't seem to be that much of a problem with introducing them. 


Incidentally:

Just in a tiny bit of offtopicness, I'd say that it's the religion and the belief that makes Machine Spirits generate such a warp prescence.  To put it another way, Iron Men were soulless whereas Machine Spirits have a soul, but it's the name that does it.  If you took a humanoid Iron Man, and got people to believe that it was a gift of the Omnissiah and carefully clean it religiously with sacred oil, then it will build up a warp prescene.
Shortly before the mainstream AdMech find you, and shut you down as a heretek, of course.

I have to say... that's one of the most original and interesting ideas regarding the Machine Spirit problem that I've seen for a long, long time. I will think about this. Maybe even incorporate it in my own view of 40k (the ultimate honour, if you didn't know  )

You would find it under the category of "Supernatural" in my stock answer to "What is the machine spirit," or the suggestion of the psychometric build-up (psychic energy) being patterned (subconsensual reality) to form a "spirit" or "soul" as one of the alternate ideas of what a 'machine spirit' could be (not must be).  It was basically a blending of the "attribution" and "supernatural" categories, to be fair... But there we go.

Original it was not, for I had it pinned ages ago and, well, I doubt that I was being original at all.




And following my more traditional quote-fest as a response.  Before going into that, it strikes me that the assumption has always been to see discontinuity between the Iron Men and the Stone Men.  I touched on it with reference to transhumanism, above, though I used the term incorrectly.  The transition between the Gold and Stone Men is primarily cultural and genetic engineering, but between the Gold/Stone Men and the Iron Men?  It's one of transhumanism - the shift towards cyborgs and their ilk.  This doesn't mean that Artificial or Machine Intelligences were not developed, jus that - perhaps - one of the fundamental bases of technology has its roots in a confused interpretation of this period.  Biological circuits are introduced because they are a part of humans...

And, of course, there's no reason that subsequently "Iron Men" might not encompass artificial humanoid (and other) creations.  (The irony, perhaps, is that most of the modern Adeptus Mechanicus would probably not recognise an "Iron Man" if they saw one -- it would be just another 'machine spirit.')

Of course, this is going to come and bite me on the backside if I'm not careful.  What I'm not suggesting is that 40k computers are not "brains in boxes," but just biological circuits that are introduced into more traditional computing systems.  I'm also not saying that 40k computers use silicon-based technologies, since the evidence is that they do not (at least exclusively), just that I'm not at all arguing for the "brain in the box" idea, which I find to be a horrendously simplistic approach.  That's just me, though.

Thus, if you were to simplify the above to a basic premise, it is that humans become cyborgs and the premises are integrated into computational technology, rather than humans becoming computers.  Or animals becoming computers, or whatever phrases such as "animal intelligence" might make some people think of.

Again, for me.


And now the quote-fest.

Interesting idea, though it poses the question of where did the Iron Men go?

I would rather we didn't inherently go down the "servants of humanity who turn for the sake of humanity" approach.  As to where they go?  Arguably?  No where.

And since it was part of the subsequent replies, I thought that I would respond to this:

I agree that during the time in which Earth and Mars became separated by warp storms...

Erm, how in the heck would Earth and Mars become separated by warp storms?  It's not as if you can feasibly travel between the two via the warp... Unless the argument is that Terra is embroiled by a warp storm that actually flows into the matterium as well, which seems to be a bit... exceptional.

It could be inferred that the Iron Men were used as soldiers in these wars...either as ground troops or perhaps as fully automated fighting ships.

This, for me, represents the blend of Iron (Hu)Man with Iron Man, and a relationship that I would like to explore.  This means that everyone is going to despise the concept and I'm just going to have to keep my mouth shut.  C'est la Anargo.

You do have a point there, but as I've already written the above reply I might as well post it.

Well, I thought that I would post my concepts to muddy the situation, but I'm sure that they'll get ignored anyway so...

I just think it's a question of being a bit structured and trying to be constructive rather than simply posting a number of ideas without actually building on them and looking to create a compromise between all the different ideas.

See the above.  I just piggy-backed off your ideas to present my own.

If, on the other hand, we keep talking past each other and having multiple simultaneous discussions...

I know that feeling.

Yes, yes, Kage. Grimdark and emo, if you must...  )

It's only when the premise is used to reinforce the premise because of itself.  Then it is emo with people somewhat pathetically whining about how unique, grim, dark and just so much more "realistic" than any other universe.

Since you didn't do that, you're fine.

"Zwijgen is toestemmen" (rough translation: Silence is agreement) 

Flip side of that is that people don't want to respond out of "fear," or they don't know how to respond with the "I hate this idea."  Not saying that this is occurring here, I'm just offering up a separate aetiology.

So wait, humanity's psychic abilities start to manifest themselves because of the gradual Fall of the Eldar empire or does the increased warp presence of human souls also influence the Eldar Fall (birth of Slaanesh)...

Wave supposition.  Resonance.  One imagines that it is a combination of the both.  What do I know, though?

Kage