[Organisations] The Adeptus Mechanicus

[Govinda]

     I understand, as i imagine some policy concerning those things are important for such a project.
     I never intended "To boil the whole 40k universe down to Old Ones vs C'tan, where everyone and everything in the galaxy is just a collection of pieces on their chessboard", i like the gigantism and the multiplicity of faction in 40K and surely not a manicheist approach.
     But i also like the fact that it has a deep history and the fact that all the sentients of the galaxy are "in the same boat" (like eldars creating slaanesh having repercussions for all). that said in my homebrew c'tan and old ones aren't of relevance as they are dead or inactive, only the consequences of their acts upon the choices of latter races do.
     As for the Mechanicus, i really like them but more is better...

     On the subject at hand, the point i was trying to make is that if there are machine spirits,aka souls, i think the concept of multi causes and emergence are best as in much transhuman novels.

ps: i haven't been clear but i see the dragon more as a victim of the mechanicus than the reverse and surely not the power behind the throne  now i won't dare present you my Adeptus Matricharia and their temple on Venus 

i m off for the weekend

Emperor bless

[Kage2020]

On the subject at hand, the point i was trying to make is that if there are machine spirits,aka souls, i think the concept of multi causes and emergence are best as in much transhuman novels.

Which we have... The working premise here is that there are three primary interpretations of the identity of the machine spirit: (1) attribution through an animistic cosmology; (2) various degrees of programmed or machine intelligence; and (3) supernatural, such as with the psychometric development of 'soul.'

ps: i haven't been clear but i see the dragon more as a victim of the mechanicus than the reverse and surely not the power behind the throne...

Much more palatable, but at the same time I really don't think that we're going to go down the Transformers route here, with all modern technology deriving from Megatron the Dragon.

... now i won't dare present you my Adeptus Matricharia and their temple on Venus 

We would love to hear about it, but based upon the name I'm guessing that the whole "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" thing might be a bit... Well, you know.

Kage

[Govinda]

As said i m not used to forums so i don't know how to quote...

i think i don't get what you want about the machine spirit thing...
- how it might really happen; in this case i'd see some kind of technological process going inexpected ways like my previous explanation (the bit about c'tan being easily removable).
-how people might explain how it happen; in this case all three of your proposals should happen.

hehe, about mecha/dragon:

" see your point about humanity being able to create its own technology without external help as I entirely agree, after all, wh40k is all about the grandeur of man in terms of ambition, ressourcefulness (spell?) and resilience. "

"I see the relation of the adeptus mechanicus with the c'tan more along the lines of a powerful wizard with an even more powerful djinn trapped in a bottle. And asleep. In  their basement. "

and i m really not fan about american comics culture, so i don't get the point about transformers.

it s mainly based upon the idea of giving another semi-mystical faction to the Imperium to counterbalance the Mechanicus. With a spoonfull of Bene Gesserit.

From wath i see ou re trying to create a 40K setting with as few 40K Mythos as possible and more politics isn't it?

[Kage2020]

As said i m not used to forums so i don't know how to quote...

No worries.  To quote then try the following (replacing {} with [])...

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Produces:

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While:

{quote author=Kage2020}text{/quote}

Produces:

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Hopefully that you should help!

- how it might really happen; in this case i'd see some kind of technological process going inexpected ways like my previous explanation (the bit about c'tan being easily removable).

You will note that my categorisation explains how various manifestations of the phenomenon might include... well, all of the options.  That's why I say that taking a singular view is, in this case, a weakness rather than a strength.

-how people might explain how it happen; in this case all three of your proposals should happen.

Indeed, they all work.  It's just a case of experience and interpretation.

"I see the relation of the adeptus mechanicus with the c'tan more along the lines of a powerful wizard with an even more powerful djinn trapped in a bottle. And asleep. In  their basement. "

That's fair enough.  I will, however, not allow Anargo's approach to the Dragon to make it the Omega... the all and everything.  Thus the "Dragon Cult."

and i m really not fan about american comics culture, so i don't get the point about transformers.

In this case it was a reference to the recent movie.  In that, a singular entity is described as being the font of all human technological development past, well, the 18th century.

From wath i see ou re trying to create a 40K setting with as few 40K Mythos as possible and more politics isn't it?

Absolutely not. 

It's about looking at the 40k universe without feeling required to develop everything in generic terms.

Kage

[Dragon Lord]

I had sort of forgotten about Expert Systems and that ilk when I posted my previous comments.  It is probably more likely to be true Machine Intelligence that is considered heretical by the Adeptus Mechanicus (possibly Turing level with things that possess limited MI but significantly sub-Turing being acceptable).  In that sense I could see the Machine Spirit of a Titan as being a complex expert system with a supernatural component.

Ok, so to codify my previous thoughts in terms of Kage's three key concepts, Attribution, Programmed/Machine Intelligence and Supernatural.
I think that the Adeptus Mechanicus, at least in its dealings with those outside the Mechanicus and probably also to lesser Mechanicum adepts Attributes all mechanical devices with a 'machine spirit' that  is 'appeased/encouraged/awakened/whatever is appropriate' by running through the correct series of actions that will activate/unjam/otherwise get working the machine in question.
Above that I think that some more complex machines, such as advanced cogitators, land raiders, etc. have some sort of actual programmed intelligence (of the same sort of level a modern day computer program could manage) or possibly slightly above that into the realm of non-sentient expert systems.
I still consider a titan to be the pinnacle of allowed Intelligence amongst Imperial machinery with that being some sort of advanced expert system that is possibly bordering on sentient.
On top of the programmed intelligences/expert systems I think that some 'intelligences', in particular titans, have a Supernatural, or semi-supernatural component that is perhaps vaguely comparable to the machine having a soul.  This I think probably generally comes about as the result of contact with human users, especially direct neurological contact such as via an MIU.  On the other hand I agree that this apparently supernatural component could in fact be the result of subtle and very complex alterations of the (already dizzyingly complex) programming of the 'intelligence' as a result of human contact.

Regarding your factions, philosophies and paradigms, they all seem fine to me, though it might be better to make the distinction between the Separationists and the Separatists clearer (and to use the word paradigm as the descriptor in the last section).  I'm also curious as to where you would feel that the factions described in the Inquisitor supplement would fit in.

@Govinda
Like Kage, while I like the idea of the Dragon being interred on Mars and this possibly having impacted on the Adeptus Mechanicus I think we should avoid placing too much of human development on the Dragon.

[EarthScorpion]

Just adding this to the thread; found it on the Fantasy Flight website, as an extract from Disciples of the Dark Gods, the Dark Heresy Cults Sourcebook.  And, yes, I do have it on order.  It's interesting, as it states explicitly quite a few of the big things that most of the Adeptus Mechanicus, most of the time, in most circumstances, on the whole (enough qualifiers, you think?) object to, at least without explicit authorisation from higher ups.

The Forbidden Arts of Dark Technology

The fundamental tenet of the Logicians, as enshrined in the great text, is the acquisition of power through unrestrained technological advancement. The great arrogance and sin of this work is as obvious as it is dangerous to anyone who believes in the Credo Omnissiah or the Imperial Creed and would lead mankind back to the terrors of the Age of Strife if it was allowed to bear fruit.

Here are but a few examples of the dark paths down which such forbidden technology might wander and the legends that cloak them:

Engines of Destruction: Weapons are the foremost goal and desire of many tech-heretics, whether it's the discovery or theft of heavily restricted designs—such as atomics or the dread life-eater virus used as a tool of Exterminatus, acquiring sophisticated relics like the secrets to creating the induction coils used in plasma weapons, or the pursuit of alien designs of terrible power.

Gholam and other Forbidden Fleshworks: A Gholam is an artificial construct made primarily of flesh and synthetic tissue by the arts of a gene-sculptor, although a widespread technology within the Adeptus Mechanicus, many branches of this lore are considered heretical and forbidden. These, in particular, include so-called "Murder Gholam"—horrific organic fabrications solely intended for violence, and homonculites—bio-forms fashioned from harvested human organs, alchemical serums and vat-grown tissue in the shape of a living thing with no natural origin. Rarer creations include "Chimerics"—strange amalgam creatures that combine many sources of DNA in often twisted monstrosities with utterly unpredictable results, forced psychic mutation, and unspeakable "slaver parasites"—artificial organic grafts that subvert the will and the bodily functions of those unfortunates they are inflicted upon.

According to sacred legend, such fleshworks were forbidden by the word of the Emperor during the days of the Great Crusade in response to the horrors that he and his superhuman warriors encountered in the wars to end the Age of Strife.

Transgenic Blasphemy: This field of research embodies the techno-heresy of combining xenos gene-matter or surgical grafts with human organic matter. It is an utterly forbidden practice, considered both a pollution of the divine pattern by the Adeptus Mechanicus and outright blasphemy by the Imperial Cult.

The Silica Animus: An artificial mind (rather than a simple cogitator) created from forbidden technologies, tradition holds that such unholy constructs are inherently evil and a perverted abomination in the sight of Omnissiah. Mechanicus doctrine states that the machine spirit of a Silica Animus is a twisted mockery of the soul of man, treacherous and insane. Ancient texts tell apocryphal stories, shrouded in metaphor, of such murderous and powerful creations during the Dark Age, and the legions of ‘iron children' that served them, blaming them in part for many of the terrible wars that laid humanity low in that lost time.

Malifica: Perhaps the darkest and most arcane of all sciences is the technology created to manipulate the energies of the warp or psychic force. A necessary evil for the Imperium and a cornerstone of its existence, it is a dangerous and volatile field of study. At the outer regions of the excepted uses and patterns of this tech lie terrible devices and desires, and the melding of Daemonic spirits with machinery and the channelling of the raw power of the empyrean through technology has long been a thing forbidden by the Mechanicus. For those reckless or insane enough, the temptation to pursue such dark experiements is great, offering the possibility of creativity and function unfettered by reason or the surly bonds of the universe's physical laws.

The Proteus Protocol: Considered little more than a myth by many but the ultimate goal of an obsessed few, the Proteus Protocol is an ancient and heretical technology for transferring not only the engramatic knowledge and memory of an organic brain, but also the personality and will, granting in effect complete mental and spiritual immortality in a artificial physical form. Of the few legends that surround this tech, some state that the abominations created are soulless beings with dark desires and alien hungers that can never be satiated. These warnings however, often fail to deter the Protocol's most ardent seekers.

[Kage2020]

Thanks for the post, Earthscorpion.  I'm sure that we can introduce some of them into the mold, but of course we wouldn't want to step into the same mold as FFG seems to be working on...

Kage