The internal structure of the Venturer

[CELS]

I think I might be on my own here but I prefer a more complex, warren-like arrangement as opposed to having a central access way running down the spine of the ship with capillery tubes running laterally. I for one cannot really see the need, most of the crew are going to eat, sleep, work, live, and die (If you buy into the full grim-darkery of the 40k universe) at their action/battle stations, they are not really going to need to traverse the full length of the ship. As for cargo transfer, surely you could load it from hatches on the outside of the hull rather than transporting it along the spine of the ship, which would limit the cargo the size of the access way.

I see your point, but I can easily imagine situations that would require transportation of crew and equipment across the length of the ship. The most obvious example would be when the ship needs to repair itself, for example after a battle or navigating a hazardous asteroid field. There is likely to be a dedicated workforce of servitors, ratings and tech priests who will go to any damaged part of the ship and fix it, if possible. I don't think the ship will have 100 compartments with 1 tech priest each, and then if a compartment is damaged, the lone tech priest is responsible for fixing his compartment. Furthermore, I imagine that any damaged section of the ship is going to need a lot of spare components, bulkheads and what not, and these would probably be located in a few central storage facilities. Ammunition is likely to be spread out evenly across the ship (you wouldn't want to keep all your eggs in one basket), but you probably won't have the same ammo expenditure on all sides of the ship. If the ship is being pursued by attackers, maybe all the rearward weapons will run out of ammo first and ammo will need to be transported from the prow betteries to the stern. If the ship is circling its target, it will run out of ammo on one side and you'll need to transport ammo from port to starboard, for example.

In all fairness, that was the same with any ship of the 40k universe, with all the space dedicated to fuel and engine components.  And, please, no "atmosphere generators."  One hopes that the concept of terraforming has come along a bit since those days...

An explanation would be nice. Otherwise, I'd say "please, no two-stage design" and leave it at that

I think that I'm preferring the idea that this ship is one of the attendant ships in a colonisation effort--more worker drone than queen.  (Perhaps you, CELS, would be willing to do a quick sketchup of the larger vessel so that it can be used for a size comparison?  Maybe one solution to the somewhat silly size of the 40k vessels is that they're patterned off colonisation vessels and not what one might consider "reasonably sized" vessels?)

To have the Seeker class as part of a larger colonisation fleet makes sense to me. Using the colonisation to explain the size of Imperial vessels doesn't really make sense to me, I'm afraid. In regards to modelling the "queen", I guess anyone could just put together a model using the starship components. If we want to create a specific model from scratch, I'd suggest doing that after we finish with the Venturer, even if it's only a "quick sketchup". It doesn't strike me as being a priority.

Seriously, I'm throwing out ideas.  That's all.  If the Venturer were an ancillary ship the "spinal weapon" could have originally been nothing more than a mass driver to propel (refined) minerals mined from a distant location to the position of the colonised world.  That this might subsequently be used as a military weapon is no-never-mind. (Although we're obviously not producing a mining vessel, here.  I'm just suggesting that original function and subsequent use might not be the same thing...)

I'm not saying it's a bad idea or that it shouldn't be done. I was just saying that it didn't appeal to me personally. That's all. Just offering my opinion.

And please, for the love of a God that I don't really believe in, please stop using the pretentious term "grimdark."

Indeed. Pointing out and exaggerating the obvious characteristics of the 40k image in a derogatory manner gets old incredibly fast, in my opinion. Whenever people start throwing that little word around, I just skip to the next paragraph. Or the next thread.

[Haarken]

   I think my resistance to the idea of a mag-lev train forms around the idea that at 1.2km, the ship really isn't all that long, at an average walking speed that would only take 15 to 20 minutes to walk and that there are much simpler solutions to the problem of transporting crew, cargo and equipment around the ship. The 40k versions of golf buggies, fork lift trucks and tractors could be used along  a central access way instead cutting journeys to single figures, not only could these be used on the ship but they could also be used to unload the ship, scout and explore etc. Alternatively you could have a network of vertical and horizontal elevators.

   Whilst I agree to some extent that there would be a dedicated repair force I also think that most ratings would be able to do basic repair work, splicing wires, sealing bulkheads, welding emergency patches. I wasn't really suggesting that there would be a tech priest to every compartment, in fact I'd prefer it if the tech priest remained quite firmly ensconced in the high technology parts of the ship I.e. the engine rooms, the bridge, the Gellar Field generators etc. and let mechanics, servitors and ratings do repairs to less important systems.

   As for ammunition I kind of have to disagree, I can't see it being moved around the ship all that much. I imagined a system similar to modern warships whereby the ammunition is stored in a dedicated armoured ammunition compartment directly beneath the gun (this could just as easily mean behind in terms of the Venturer) and hoisted up to the gun with the propellant as and when needed. Of course if ammunition does need to be transferred to another gun then you could always use the aforementioned buggies/elevators.

   The concept of the ship having a detachable module is an interesting idea but I can't really see the need if the Seeker class is designed to be able to enter and leave the atmosphere of a planet, and if the new exterior model CELS produced is the direction we are heading forward with I.e. with no protrusions on the keel then I really don't see the need to have anything detach from the ship.

[CELS]

I can be swayed either way, really. I think you've got some good points, Haarken, but one can make arguments either way. You could have horizontal elevators, but that's just a fancy name for trains. Instead of having them run on wheels, one could make them mag-lev. One could transport heavy components (such as bulk heads for repairs) outside the ship, but it strikes me as far more practical to transport them inside. In regards to ammunition, you can draw comparison with modern battleships, but the problem is that modern battleships aren't a kilometer long and most of their guns can fire to either side. They don't have the age of sail configuration of broadsides, so there's little chance of running out of ammo on either side of the ship. At least not for the main guns. And even then, they don't have to worry about moving ammunition over a hundred meters from port to starboard.

Anyway, like I said, I'm not insisting one way or the other. I can go with mag-lev or without mag-lev. I can go with modular or without modular design. I can go with or without the spinal weapon. The only area where I have a strong opinion is when it comes to surface landing.

[Kage2020]

I think that it is important that when thinking about the Venturer we continue to remember that it is not just a 40k ship.  One of the more interesting things about it is that it is a hold over from the G/DAoT, do design elements that slip in from that period are, for me, more than welcome.  If it were just about where to put the skulls and floating babies, I would probably be less interested.

I agree with CELS' assessment that "horizontal elevators" becomes a replacement for trains, so perhaps Haarken's resistance is partially due to the fact that "train" sounds so... big?

Either way, some form of assisted rapid movement between different areas of the ship, at least axially, is in my mind required.  It might only take 15-20 minutes to get from one end to the other, but that can be a significant period of time in an emergency, even with golf buggies in the ship of a skull a born upon a hundred servitor feet.

Kage

[Philip S]

Life-support: air, food, waste Recycling (and the effect of the design)

Which bits of the ship have air and which bits of the ship do not (need suits)?

 Seems are shame to put air into every inch of the sip when it is not needed, and removing that oxygen from the environment reduces the fire risk. This also gives the workers a reason to wear those heavy suits I remember from BFG, and ensures they get the air they need.

The central spine idea seems good, and the main place where there is breathable air. Being in the centre of the ship is is well protected from being breached. There could be major recycling and reprocessing centres here (rack-farms?) and the majority of hab units. This could directly link to the ships control centres and bridge (no need for bulky pressure suit)

Some areas could have localised recycling, like little islands within the ship's infrastructure, totally isolated. These could be near the big guns and the engine room (Ad-Mec shrines).

I image the stores would be de-pressurised, as would loading bays, ports and all areas between the 'skins'. So no explosive decompression when the ship is damaged, and no need of force fields or massive bay doors to be air tight (and no need to pump out the air every time a shuttle enters or leaves).

?

Philip

[Tentacles]

Good afternoon everyone!

Apologies in advance for any posting etiqute i might be about to break!

   
The concept of the ship having a detachable module is an interesting idea but I can't really see the need if the Seeker class is designed to be able to enter and leave the atmosphere of a planet, and if the new exterior model CELS produced is the direction we are heading forward with I.e. with no protrusions on the keel then I really don't see the need to have anything detach from the ship.

I'm a little concerned about the concept of a 1.2+ km long ship being able to enter a planets atmosphere. To the best of my knowledge (and i'll freely admit thats extremely limited) it would grossly affect the designs that you could produce for the actual shape of the ship. To to that end if the idea behind the ship was as a colonisation vessel then some sort of detachable "down only" segment might be a good idea.

[Tynesh]

I'm a little concerned about the concept of a 1.2+ km long ship being able to enter a planets atmosphere. To the best of my knowledge (and i'll freely admit thats extremely limited) it would grossly affect the designs that you could produce for the actual shape of the ship.

Have you never seen any form of Science-Fiction!

Unlike Scotty we "Can bend the rules of Physics".  Some things are a given in Sci-fi and in general that is things will not obey the laws of physics.  Shields, inertial dampeners, integrity fields, anti-grav and handwavium all provide the answers!

[Kage2020]

Which bits of the ship have air and which bits of the ship do not (need suits)?

 Seems are shame to put air into every inch of the sip when it is not needed, and removing that oxygen from the environment reduces the fire risk.

Perhaps you might offer a suggestion as to what might not need to be in an atmosphere except for, perhaps, the fuel tanks?

This also gives the workers a reason to wear those heavy suits I remember from BFG, and ensures they get the air they need.

Remember that the ship was not built in the Age of the Imperium.  Plus, at "battle stations" one imagines that some form of vacc suit is strangely useful.

There could be major recycling and reprocessing centres here (rack-farms?) and the majority of hab units. This could directly link to the ships control centres and bridge (no need for bulky pressure suit)

Link for the rack units?  What size are we talking about?  And depending on their nature, wouldn't a more "sci" approach work as equally well without limiting area/volume?

I image the stores would be de-pressurised, as would loading bays, ports and all areas between the 'skins'.

I would imagine that they have the capability to be decompressed, but it makes little design logic for the ship as it stands to contain vast areas that are decompressed.  For example, what if you want living cargo in the "cargo bays?" 

I'm a little concerned about the concept of a 1.2+ km long ship being able to enter a planets atmosphere.

Not a fan myself, but at the same time given that the design is going to make use of "contra-grav" lift technology (read: "anti-grav" as it might be termed in the 40k universe), we're not going to be needing good 'ole Bernoull.  (Aerodynamic lift is not going to figure into the model, otherwise the size would be even more ridiculous.)

Oh, and welcome to the project, Tentacles.  Introduce yourself over in the Introduction forum!

Unlike Scotty we "Can bend the rules of Physics".  Some things are a given in Sci-fi and in general that is things will not obey the laws of physics.  Shields, inertial dampeners, integrity fields, anti-grav and handwavium all provide the answers!

At the same time, being aware of the physics and the limitations that it might place on the vessel are a good thing to know about. 

Kage

[CELS]

Philip has an interesting point in regards to areas of the ship without air. Especially in regards to shuttle bays and weapon decks, I think. However, one thing which should be considered is the fact that working all day in a space suit gets tiresome after a few years of constant service. This might lead to work related accidents, impaired concentration, irritability, depression and various other mental problems. Furthermore, it really sucks if someone's suit is damaged and they suffocate / freeze / explode. I think Kage has a good idea in regards to the "ability to be decompressed". It's like in BFG, when your ship is about to take damage, you can "Brace for Impact", which makes your ship less likely to take damage (at the cost of reduced firepower and inability to go on other special orders). When a captain orders his ship to brace for impact, that probably doesn't just mean that everyone's holding on for dear life. It could mean that all the blast doors are slammed shut and several sections of the ship are decompressed, in order to prevent fires and what not. Everyone puts on their space suit.

[Philip S]

Perhaps you might offer a suggestion as to what might not need to be in an atmosphere except for, perhaps, the fuel tanks?

I would guess; all engineering, stores and heavy workshops. I image the engines and power systems of a warp capable starships are massive; not only to feed the engines but also to power weapons. None of these areas would have to be pressurised.

Note on layout design: these areas could be the next area out from the spine after the hab and racks area?

Remember that the ship was not built in the Age of the Imperium.

You think I would forget an opportunity to shoe horn in the iron men? Why would they need air?

Plus, at "battle stations" one imagines that some form of vacc suit is strangely useful.

Indeed. The added bonus with my idea is that a person will not be blown out into space in the event of an explosive decompression due to hull breach (the horror angle: they may survive in the suit adrift?). Instead the hull breach will mean very localised damage and no sudden air rush out of the ship. The only horror (for setting purposes) is in the case of suit damage where a person may see their friend or college suffer a suit decompression right before their eyes.

The great bit is that the officers deep in the ship's innards and well protected, would suffer spectacularly in the case of a decompression of the ship's 'spine' (perhaps they think of going down with the ship as a point of honour, and may win some respect from the crew who will all be suited up and may survive).

A spine breach is bad.

There could be major recycling and reprocessing centres here (rack-farms?) and the majority of hab units. This could directly link to the ships control centres and bridge (no need for bulky pressure suit)

Link for the rack units?

Yeah, the rack unit produce air, reprocessing carbon dioxide from 'wheeled in' air scrubbers (units from high security isolated areas) and directly linked to crew quarters (due to crew rotations - someone is always sleeping and keeping the plants ticking over.) These air scrubbers are mobile and could be wheeled up to the bridge every 12 hours, with the old ones taken away and replenished in a similar time frame (scrubbers are like a buffer to the rack farm system).

What size are we talking about?

Racks work out as quite big to support even a single person. It would basically be the Ecorium system in space. You're looking at one of those 30m x 30m x 4.5m rooms to house enough racks.

This may explain why the ships are so huge!

Alternatively you could go for a hi-tec 'magic' approach and use tons of energy?

And depending on their nature, wouldn't a more "sci" approach work as equally well without limiting area/volume?

Well the Ecorium concept for space is sci-fi, though is may be a bit to 'realistic'. Anything could work though if you put enough though into it.

One good thing about tons of racks is that they are hard to damage all of them at one, and in a power out all the racks have independent power so none of the Star Trek nonsense of failing life-support 3 seconds after an engine failure  Though this could be replicated with decentralised hi-tec units such as: something like this and you would never need a rack - though this doesn't deal with food.

I would suggest that hi-tec unit supplement the rack farms. They could kick in when the system is over taxed, or put in very remote pressurised areas (perhaps some control room where a pressure suit would mess with manual dexterity? Or perhaps because an officer is there 9and they don't do pressure suits  ).

As a tangent: perhaps workshops that deal with small parts have those glass tanks similar to medical facilities, you know; the one where you can put your arms in. Except the suit that goes with is has mere tubes for the arm section that ends with an air-seal. The ends of the tube lock into the tank 'hand' holes, and once stabilised, the user can push their bare hands into the tank to work on objects where dexterity is needed? This could even be used for controls on cranes, or accessing touch panels (touch type?) maybe even 'plug in' small arms? Hmm, you could even have plug-in gloves if the suit is flexible and the sleeve can concertina. So detachable gloves?

I image the stores would be de-pressurised, as would loading bays, ports and all areas between the 'skins'.

I would imagine that they have the capability to be decompressed, but it makes little design logic for the ship as it stands to contain vast areas that are decompressed.

It makes a certain amount of design logic in regard to these massive starships. If you pressurise the cargo hold and the hold suffers an explosive decompression; how much cargo is left? How much air is lost?

Pressurising a super massive cargo hold may offer little in the way of advantage considering the system tolerances of the whole ship (basically an enclosed ecosystem). I'm sure any exceptional circumstances could be dealt with given a little imagination.

For example, what if you want living cargo in the "cargo bays?"

This would be one of the 'exceptions' I mention. You could simple move the live cargo to a hold within the life-support area. Effectively introducing the cargo the the ships ecosystem, though I image this may not be a good idea for quarantine reasons - perhaps a dedicated and isolated area? Or perhaps some extreme isolation would be in order;

In the case of 40K (or 30K) I'd suggest we put them in air-tight containers and hook those containers up to life-support air feed hoses (one in and one out) with full filters. All the containers in the hold could be supplied with air if needs be. However, if there too many containers and the system can't cope: how about portable life-support units to be brought on board?

Or special super massive 'cow-packs' a cargo container with internal life-support good for 1 year (poor bastards!) where the cow is held in a medically induced coma, intravenously feed, air-mask nose bag, periodical electro-shocked to stimulate the muscles and prevent wastage and all wrapped up in some form of Styrofoam? It would also reduce their air consumption by keeping them 'calm'.

It would keep the cargo hold fully isolated and reduce the chance of disease outbreak. Even for live cargo this may be a good idea - if one cow-pack goes bad then only that cow is lost. If one cow is infected with a virus, the incubation period would most likely not outlast the journey, and the cow would be sick, but the virus is contained. Maybe some form of probe before opening these containers to check them? Maybe the infected containers can be 'fired' to destroy and pathogens?

Philip

[Kage2020]

think Kage has a good idea in regards to the "ability to be decompressed".

And, I think, the logic that we should move forwards with.  Who knows, though.

I would guess; all engineering, stores and heavy workshops. I image the engines and power systems of a warp capable starships are massive; not only to feed the engines but also to power weapons. None of these areas would have to be pressurised.

I can see the logic, but feel that the baby is being thrown out with the bath water, as it were.  While stores or engineering might not need to have an atmosphere, the continual cycling of atmosphere to no-atmosphere is going to get pretty tiresome pretty quickly. 

Thus, certain areas might have the atmosphere removed at "battle stations," but I have strong doubts and reservations about making this the standard, day-to-day situation.

You think I would forget an opportunity to shoe horn in the iron men? Why would they need air?

LOL. 

But seriously, no Iron Men except the AI...

The great bit is that the officers deep in the ship's innards and well protected, would suffer spectacularly in the case of a decompression of the ship's 'spine' (perhaps they think of going down with the ship as a point of honour, and may win some respect from the crew who will all be suited up and may survive).

That's as maybe, but again what I think is going to be taken from this is that areas of the ship may be decompressed at "battle stations" but following the danger it's back to pressurised atmospheres for those areas that need 'em (i.e. regular movement of people through the area).

These air scrubbers are mobile and could be wheeled up to the bridge every 12 hours, with the old ones taken away and replenished in a similar time frame (scrubbers are like a buffer to the rack farm system).

I don't know about anyone else, but I would prefer that we don't have people wheeling air scrubbers about everywhere, but rather it is considered a part of the environmental systems infrastructure.

Racks work out as quite big to support even a single person. It would basically be the Ecorium system in space. You're looking at one of those 30m x 30m x 4.5m rooms to house enough racks.

Well, we're not really spending that much time working on the volume of each component - I don't think that we area, though that is do-able - but rather just use the simpler component-based approach. Erm, which means thanks for the numbers.

This may explain why the ships are so huge!

Or that an alternate technology is used.

Kage

[Philip S]

I would guess; all engineering, stores and heavy workshops. I image the engines and power systems of a warp capable starships are massive; not only to feed the engines but also to power weapons. None of these areas would have to be pressurised.

I can see the logic, but feel that the baby is being thrown out with the bath water, as it were.  While stores or engineering might not need to have an atmosphere, the continual cycling of atmosphere to no-atmosphere is going to get pretty tiresome pretty quickly.

Ah I see what you're saying, but that's not how I envision it. I think these areas would be permanently decompressed and never pressurised. Those working in there, or collecting something from there, have pressure suits.

You think I would forget an opportunity to shoe horn in the iron men? Why would they need air?

LOL. 

But seriously, no Iron Men except the AI...

I was thinking of the 30K version and why the crew back then didn't need pressure suits. 40K techs can retrofit

The great bit is that the officers deep in the ship's innards and well protected, would suffer spectacularly in the case of a decompression of the ship's 'spine' (perhaps they think of going down with the ship as a point of honour, and may win some respect from the crew who will all be suited up and may survive).

That's as maybe, but again what I think is going to be taken from this is that areas of the ship may be decompressed at "battle stations" but following the danger it's back to pressurised atmospheres for those areas that need 'em (i.e. regular movement of people through the area).

I may not have put this across very well (as I assume a lot of design to go with what I say), but the spine and officer sections, the spine crew quarters are all pressurised. They may be compartmentalised and linked to corresponding rack-farm areas, but they will always the pressurised. This is the 'normal' part of the ship. The control and admin etc.

Quite different from the next layer out, the decompressed parts that surround the spine/ pressurised areas (like a sausage roll, meaty bit = pressurised, pastry bit = depressurised... I'm hungry)

These air scrubbers are mobile and could be wheeled up to the bridge every 12 hours, with the old ones taken away and replenished in a similar time frame (scrubbers are like a buffer to the rack farm system).

I don't know about anyone else, but I would prefer that we don't have people wheeling air scrubbers about everywhere, but rather it is considered a part of the environmental systems infrastructure.

These would be for critical system and isolated areas like bridge, so not everywhere. I think this may be down to how I have describe it and my failure to get the vision across and paint the picture see in words.

I figure the bridge would be a good example, as on CEL's concept it looks high up and out of the way from the 'spine', and damage to the connect would mean a huge leak, which would have to be sealed/ cut off, and that would mean no air on the bridge. Using the air scrubbers; at least those on the bridge would have air even if the support structure is compromised, and new scrubbers can be brought up by suited crew. This isolated the bridge.

Mind you, the bridge seems quite large and you could put rack-farms up there, but I also figure it is a huge target point and so the designers would try to isolate it as much as possible and reduce pressurised areas as much as possible. This would mean that the bridge could be very heavily armoured and able to suffer multiple breaches and still function (indeed boarding assault teams will need suits, and may be locked into contained areas, like a double skin and have to cut their way in. The bridge could be designed like a castle/ fortress)

Racks work out as quite big to support even a single person. It would basically be the Ecorium system in space. You're looking at one of those 30m x 30m x 4.5m rooms to house enough racks.

Well, we're not really spending that much time working on the volume of each component - I don't think that we area, though that is do-able - but rather just use the simpler component-based approach. Erm, which means thanks for the numbers.

Just supplying what you asked me for 

This may explain why the ships are so huge!

Or that an alternate technology is used.

Indeed. I think this may come down to a flavour argument. My ideas work if taken as a whole, 'holistic', design approach. I'm well aware there are many ways to go about this, and racks can be replaced with anything you desire. The quip was in relation to having the racks, which you do not have to have.

As a design concept I'm apply the same concepts from the Ecorium, make the ship as tough and independent as possible. I reckon you could cut this ship into ten pieces with a lance and people will still be alive and well in each piece, and they would be able to survive for a very long period of time (if drifting and not pulled into an atmosphere or sun). Basically it would be like cutting the ship into ten Ecorium. The people inside could carry on just like the do back home (assuming they come from a Philverse hive!)

One tough ship. Hard as nails, no different from home sweet home for those aboard. Ideal for void born.

Probably nuke resistant too. It would be like the cockroach of ships (and in 30K they could have been just as numerous!)

Also known as god's roaches 

I think a ship like that would earn the respect of the crew 

Now I'm reminded of Mo "just coz there head is off don't mean they is dead" (or something like that)

This ship could survive catastrophic damage, have the bridge lanceed off, engines destroyed, tugged by to a dock and re-fitted and good to go.

Effin' roach.

Philip

[Kage2020]

I think these areas would be permanently decompressed and never pressurised. Those working in there, or collecting something from there, have pressure suits.

And I'm merely pointing out that if it needs regular human access it will be pressurised.  That still doesn't mean the entire ship is going to be pressurised, since there are certain parts of of the engines, etc., that aren't going to be pressurised.  Certain components of the engines, for example, aren't going to be pressurised,  although those points that require regular maintenance will... If you get the point.

Silly example would be that of sailing ships.  You don't randomly put water into certain compartments and then make someone put on a suit to get to it, at least if that compartment is accessed 20 times a day.  Chances are that, unless it is a design, that you're not going to be put the water there.

I was thinking of the 30K version and why the crew back then didn't need pressure suits. 40K techs can retrofit

I really don't want to get into the issue if Iron Men except where necessary, and I certainly don't want to see them in the same light as, say, I-Robot.  That is, there is one for every crew member, etc., etc.  That's taking the argument to the extreme, I admit, but I really don't see them as omnipresent.  A ship this size might have had, in my mind, maybe 10 or so "Iron Men," not forgetting of course that we're not just talking hardware here, since there is also that software component.

I may not have put this across very well (as I assume a lot of design to go with what I say), but the spine and officer sections, the spine crew quarters are all pressurised.

Oh, you made it clear enough.  I'm merely disagreeing as to the extent of the areas left without atmosphere.  Fuel tanks, certain engine or other components, etc., are going to be depressurised.  Whether this constitutes a majority or not  is up for grabs.  So instead of thinking about "spine," think about ship with all those other components.

Quite different from the next layer out, the decompressed parts that surround the spine/ pressurised areas (like a sausage roll, meaty bit = pressurised, pastry bit = depressurised... I'm hungry)

Well, personally I wouldn't want to see this become a part of the Venturer project.  Maybe it's too "generic" for some, but I like my ships following the more traditional design than some toroidal tube...

Again, though, the way it seems to me is that there are still going to be massive depressurised areas (fuel tanks are a biggie).  Actually, that might not strictly be true, but suffice to say that they're not going to have a human-friendly atmosphere in them, even if they are actually held under great pressure.  Where these fuel tanks, and these other depressurised areas, are is a matter to be discussed. 

These would be for critical system and isolated areas like bridge, so not everywhere.

Even for the bridge, to be fair.  That it might have a backup system is reasonable, which you subsequently go on to say.

Mind you, the bridge seems quite large and you could put rack-farms up there...

As I'm reading through your concept site again, I'm not entirely sure that "rack farms" are going to be suitable as the means of maintaining/perpetuating the environment of the ship.  I just don't see "fields" on board the ship, although to be fair your site seems to be missing the older rack concept and merely goes on with the Ecorium concept.

...but I also figure it is a huge target point and so the designers would try to isolate it as much as possible and reduce pressurised areas as much as possible.

Doesn't that really depend on what function the "neck" serves, surely?  One would imagine that there is a point at which depressurised areas would act as an obstacle to the residents or defenders of the ship rather than the supposed attackers.  As a line of defense, we have many other options available before removing the atmosphere.  After all, if you're suggesting that everyone is going to be wearing suits then what's the point of it anyway?  (I realise that you're not saying everyone, but you get the gist...)

The bridge could be designed like a castle/ fortress)

If anyone suggests a moat...

Just supplying what you asked me for 

And thank you for that.  It strikes me as a tad large in terms of the floor plans...

I reckon you could cut this ship into ten pieces with a lance and people will still be alive and well in each piece, and they would be able to survive for a very long period of time (if drifting and not pulled into an atmosphere or sun). Basically it would be like cutting the ship into ten Ecorium.

Total compartmentalisation of the ship was one of the basic concepts... unless that's been changed as well.

Kage

[Philip S]

I think these areas would be permanently decompressed and never pressurised. Those working in there, or collecting something from there, have pressure suits.

And I'm merely pointing out that if it needs regular human access it will be pressurised.

Sure, seems fair. I'm not disagreeing. Areas where human contact is limited =suit time. Even if stores need regular access, they could wheel out the crates of goods and wheel in the empties. I assume the suit will not excessively hinder maintenance.

Silly example would be that of sailing ships.  You don't randomly put water into certain compartments and then make someone put on a suit to get to it, at least if that compartment is accessed 20 times a day.  Chances are that, unless it is a design, that you're not going to be put the water there.

In this instance no. There again star ships don't have ballast tanks to aid in floating upright (and I suppose you would need a suit to inspect that) But on a ship it may be different, an oil rig has much of it's structure under water and it needs maintenance. Repair crews have to use suits.

As an example of the options in space:

• You could have a large container of sea water - if breached you loose all the sea water.
• Or the same large container filled with little boxes of sea water within - if breached you loose most of the boxes but retain some and can reclaim some.
• Or you could have a large container with no sea water filled with little boxes of sea water - if breached they are remain where they are and you only loose sea water from the few of the little boxes that were damaged.

The result it that one system is far better than the others, and while little boxes sounds a wee bit small, scaling it up to ship size, a ship's hold, cargo containers and swapping water for air and it makes the point.

Again some areas can be pressurised, but I image they would be high volume traffic and work zones, and if small fiddly work move it to the spine and the pressurised areas.

Quite different from the next layer out, the decompressed parts that surround the spine/ pressurised areas (like a sausage roll, meaty bit = pressurised, pastry bit = depressurised... I'm hungry)

Well, personally I wouldn't want to see this become a part of the Venturer project.  Maybe it's too "generic" for some, but I like my ships following the more traditional design than some toroidal tube...

? LOL. I'm not suggesting the ship should look like a sausage roll! I was using it to describe the zones, the inner and outer area in an abstract way.

Again, though, the way it seems to me is that there are still going to be massive depressurised areas (fuel tanks are a biggie).  Actually, that might not strictly be true, but suffice to say that they're not going to have a human-friendly atmosphere in them, even if they are actually held under great pressure.  Where these fuel tanks, and these other depressurised areas, are is a matter to be discussed.

Why would fuel tanks be pressurised? I mean I can understand air being their on a ship on the sea, as it would be a pain sealing the ship and pumping out the air, but in space and at this scale?

The natural state of a ship in atmosphere is to have atmosphere in it, and if there is a leak it does not matter as their is plenty more air. The natural state in space does not, and if there is a leak it's serious. Our current space ships are not designed for combat, they do not have to worry too much about damage, and if they are damaged they are close to home. With star ships we have to think bigger and some things that make sense on Earth will not make sense up there *points to the stars"

I'm not entirely sure that "rack farms" are going to be suitable as the means of maintaining/perpetuating the environment of the ship.  I just don't see "fields" on board the ship, although to be fair your site seems to be missing the older rack concept and merely goes on with the Ecorium concept.

Change the 'fields' for bacteria and algae sandwiched between glass and OLED plates, all stacked into trays.

...but I also figure it is a huge target point and so the designers would try to isolate it as much as possible and reduce pressurised areas as much as possible.

Doesn't that really depend on what function the "neck" serves, surely?  One would imagine that there is a point at which depressurised areas would act as an obstacle to the residents or defenders of the ship rather than the supposed attackers.  As a line of defense, we have many other options available before removing the atmosphere.  After all, if you're suggesting that everyone is going to be wearing suits then what's the point of it anyway?  (I realise that you're not saying everyone, but you get the gist...)

Why not? If most of the crew run about in suits then it's not a problem, only the officers and their staff do not, they work in pressurised areas (privilege of class/ rank). The crew gets out of their suit when back at the hab zone (eight hours ins a suit? ouch!)

The bridge could be designed like a castle/ fortress)

If anyone suggests a moat...

Like a power field? 

Just supplying what you asked me for 

And thank you for that.  It strikes me as a tad large in terms of the floor plans...

This ship is not very small.

I reckon you could cut this ship into ten pieces with a lance and people will still be alive and well in each piece, and they would be able to survive for a very long period of time (if drifting and not pulled into an atmosphere or sun). Basically it would be like cutting the ship into ten Ecorium.

Total compartmentalisation of the ship was one of the basic concepts... unless that's been changed as well.

Just following through 

Philip

[Kage2020]

Progress is always a good thing.

Sure, seems fair. I'm not disagreeing. Areas where human contact is limited =suit time. Even if stores need regular access, they could wheel out the crates of goods and wheel in the empties. I assume the suit will not excessively hinder maintenance.

Then we're in agreement on the idea that function and the regularity of "access" - whether through access or to a specific system - is going to determine whether an area is going to be pressurised or unpressurised.  I can see, however, the greater majority of the ship having an atmosphere, possibly with the exception of the items that have been mentioned: certain parts of the engines that aren't blindingly obvious (i.e. the reaction thruster exhaust manifold); external storage bays might regularly be depressurised as long as you aren't going to need regular access, and so forth.

As to the flexibility of the vacc-suits?  One imagines that there are many different types and, at this time, I'm personally unwilling to make too many guesses.

In this instance no. There again star ships don't have ballast tanks to aid in floating upright (and I suppose you would need a suit to inspect that) But on a ship it may be different, an oil rig has much of it's structure under water and it needs maintenance. Repair crews have to use suits.

Okay, good counter example!   Again, though, it was to illustrate that constantly pumping air in and out can be problematic, and that the use of a suit 24-7 might not be the ideal situation.  However, I also think that we're saying exactly the same thing, just in ways that seem like we're not.

Again some areas can be pressurised, but I image they would be high volume traffic and work zones, and if small fiddly work move it to the spine and the pressurised areas.

Again, think less "spine" and think "ship."  There is a certain burden that we have in retro-designing Dark Millennium ships, so having a sausage roll of pressurised and un-pressurised areas isn't IMO going to fit. 

? LOL. I'm not suggesting the ship should look like a sausage roll! I was using it to describe the zones, the inner and outer area in an abstract way.

I was thinking of the design that you were suggested, less the exterior aesthetics.

Why would fuel tanks be pressurised?

You can fit more fuel into it is the most obvious reason that I can think of.  Again, I'm throwing out ideas.

Change the 'fields' for bacteria and algae sandwiched between glass and OLED plates, all stacked into trays.

You used to have more information on this type of thing on your site, but it seems to have disappeared.

Why not? If most of the crew run about in suits then it's not a problem, only the officers and their staff do not, they work in pressurised areas (privilege of class/ rank). The crew gets out of their suit when back at the hab zone (eight hours ins a suit? ouch!)

Phil, you're doing it again.  You've fixed on an idea of what you want to see and, well, you're now arguing for it tooth and nail.  That's commendable, but frequently doesn't work on a group project where you get to see your ideas rejected.  For example, I wanted a 1.2 km ship that didn't land.  Now we have a 800 m ship that lands.  Perhaps those are only minor details, but at the same time... Well, again, you get my gist.

To reiterate, at this juncture - and in the absence of other responses - I'm going to stick with the idea that the ship is, more or less, pressurised, or has an atmosphere.  Depressurising the hull in strategic places during "battle stations" makes a whole lot of sense ( to me), so thanks for bringing that up, but I really, really, really don't want to see our functional sausage-toroid.  That and I'm not sure that it is suitable for a "40k" ship even if it was constructed at an earlier period.

Like a power field? 

*slaps Phil*

This ship is not very small.

For some reason I read that to be 30m tall... At the current dimensions, though, that is quite a significant chunk, but perhaps not inappropriate so.  I would have to read more information on it, but again this seems to be absent from your site (or at least now so integrated in with the Ecopolis idea as to be not so accessible).

Hmmn... quick calculated based upon a crew of 1,200 using advanced (TL 10) components gives a volume of around 169 m^3, which is a bit less than the 4,050 m^3 that you have suggested.  Again, though, this is presuming some pretty high tech... (But still strikes me as a bit too small, but there we go.)

(Just to be clear here, I'm having to bounce between GURPS 3e Vehicles and GURPS 4e Starships for these statistics.  Ultimately the ship will be statted up in the latter, but the former can be looked to for suggestions on sizes, volumes, etc., of components.  And, of course, then moderated for 40k whackiness if the component is deemed to have been produced and integrated during the Dark Millenium [or, rather, non-G/DAoT].)

Just following through 

Excellent.

Kage