A final blast at psykers...

[Dragon Lord]

Well a part of it is that I believe that the "snap a titan in two with a click of their fingers" is hyperbole.

Fair enough, can't say I blame you really it is a tad extreme.

However, what I'm after is for people to consider what in their interpretation the "average" psyker is able to do.  How much should they be able to use their powers within a given period?  How much more should the next Grade?

I would expect an average psyker (though bear in mind I am thinking of an average sanctioned psyker here, which may not be quite the same thing) should be able to fire off a few good fireballs in a short space of time without having to worry about corruption etc as an example.  So say if I was an average psyker involved in some sort of fire-fight I think that I would expect to be able to let off 2 or 3 fireballs of a size that would detonate a car in the space of 5 or 10 minutes, if that failed to bring the fight to end however I would probably need to think about retreating as I would probably have used up my 'safe' power/threshold and would need to wait for it to recharge or risk causing some sort of warp phenomenon.  Alternatively I could instead of the fireballs use one blast of warp lightning (the typical lightning from the fingers sort of thing) to damage everything in a 10m radius and allow myself to beat a hasty retreat with the side-effect that I would have completely drained by 'safe' power/threshold and perhaps even slightly exceeded it.
I would expect a psyker of the grade above to be able to let off probably twice the number of fireballs or increase the damage and/or radius of a lightning attack whereas a psyker of two or three grades above would probably be able to fire off fireballs at a rate of 2 or 3 every 5 or 10 minutes all day without a problem.

Something else I was curious about, when you talk about taint/corruption do you mean what would in Dark Heresy terms translate to corruption points or what would translate to warp phenomena?  I'm not a great fan of the Dark Heresy approach that means any psychic power use has a chance of generating warp phenomena so perhaps have effectively two thresholds one above which warp phenomena come in and one above which outright corruption becomes a danger/the warp phenomena get worse, maybe set this as double the threshold?

Something else that occured to me was that I think high-grade/highly trained psykers would, if they were planning a to use very powerful psychic ability be able to use a number of lower level powers that would effectively put up barriers/shields/wards against corruption/daemonic intrusion that would effectively raise their threshold allowing them to use the powerful ability without exceeding it, or only exceeding it a little.  This would of course require a considerable amount of time and preparation however.  This would seem to mesh quite well with increasing Tap at a faster rate with grade than threshold.

[Kage2020]

Did you know, Dragon Lord, that on three boards you are about the only person that has actually taken a stance with regards to their interpretation?  The majority of the others are talking about how it is not possible, there's not point taking a stance, and so on.  So thanks for that.

I would expect an average psyker (though bear in mind I am thinking of an average sanctioned psyker here, which may not be quite the same thing) should be able to fire off a few good fireballs in a short space of time without having to worry about corruption etc as an example.  So say if I was an average psyker involved in some sort of fire-fight I think that I would expect to be able to let off 2 or 3 fireballs of a size that would detonate a car in the space of 5 or 10 minutes....

I would expect a psyker of the grade above to be able to let off probably twice the number of fireballs or increase the damage and/or radius of a lightning attack whereas a psyker of two or three grades above would probably be able to fire off fireballs at a rate of 2 or 3 every 5 or 10 minutes all day without a problem.

Okay, fair enough.  If you go with the idea that the "average psyker" is actually a Zeta Grade, how would you feed this into Tap and Threshold?

Something else I was curious about, when you talk about taint/corruption do you mean what would in Dark Heresy terms translate to corruption points or what would translate to warp phenomena? 

Taint is acquired by "dipping into the warp," or direct contact with the warp, so in many ways is like the specific statement of what Corruption is in Dark Heresy.  Of course, in Dark Heresy morality is also used to determine when Taint/Corruption is acquired, but herein Taint is only ever the result of warp contact.  It's just unfortunate that psykers are the most common means of touching the warp.

Psychic Phenomena/Perils of the Warp are represented in part by Calamity, but also by the effects of increasing Taint, which serves to increase Tap, decrease Threshold, and generally monkey around with everything.

I'm not a great fan of the Dark Heresy approach that means any psychic power use has a chance of generating warp phenomena...

Nor am I, hence this approach.  With that said, I feel that any "critical failure" should come with it the attendant probability of problems.  I just don't think that should necessarily be a random roll to find out that you're possessed by a daemon!

so perhaps have effectively two thresholds one above which warp phenomena come in and one above which outright corruption becomes a danger/the warp phenomena get worse, maybe set this as double the threshold?

Interesting idea.  What I've been trying to get over is the idea that it is all safe unless you push yourself.

Something else that occured to me was that I think high-grade/highly trained psykers would, if they were planning a to use very powerful psychic ability be able to use a number of lower level powers that would effectively put up barriers/shields/wards against corruption/daemonic intrusion that would effectively raise their threshold allowing them to use the powerful ability without exceeding it, or only exceeding it a little.

I'm going to disagree with the idea that they can "put up shields" against Taint.  That's kind of the point of Taint--it's everywhere, and in everything.  The act of "drawing on warp energy" is the Taint itself... If you get my drift.

Would you care to take a bash at a Tap/Treshold progress from Zeta, Dragon Lord?

Kage

[Dragon Lord]

Did you know, Dragon Lord, that on three boards you are about the only person that has actually taken a stance with regards to their interpretation?  The majority of the others are talking about how it is not possible, there's not point taking a stance, and so on.  So thanks for that.

Glad I've been of some help. 

If you go with the idea that the "average psyker" is actually a Zeta Grade, how would you feed this into Tap and Threshold?

By which do you mean what do I think the tap and threshold of a Zeta Grade psyker should be?  If so not quite sure, in your interpretation of psychic powers, etc, how much power would you say a fireball matching my description would require?  As to what tap should be in relation to threshold my initial tendency would be to say that tap should be double threshold, but then I also think that tap should probably increase at a faster rate as one ascends the grades than threshold.  Actually that does make some sense, as I would probably also say that somewhere in the unconscious psychic activity band, maybe around Mu or Nu threshold should reach equality with tap, in other words it is not possible for the person to draw more power than is safe (though I suppose as they generally can't do it consciously anyway it is something of a mute point).

Would you care to take a bash at a Tap/Treshold progress from Zeta, Dragon Lord?

To some extent see the above, also based on my previous discussion I would suggest threshold doubling with grade and tap increasing at some faster rate (maybe x3 or x4).  The tap/threshold of Zeta sort of needs to be fixed or at least for me to have some idea of Zeta and the immediate environs of it before extending any postulation further.
On a side note I think Recovery should also tend to increase with grade but that it should just be a tendency rather than a fixed progression.

Psychic Phenomena/Perils of the Warp are represented in part by Calamity, but also by the effects of increasing Taint, which serves to increase Tap, decrease Threshold, and generally monkey around with everything.

Fair enough, I think I had perhaps not quite gathered that Calamity was a lesser thing than taint, possibly because it sounds, well calamitous 

With that said, I feel that any "critical failure" should come with it the attendant probability of problems.  I just don't think that should necessarily be a random roll to find out that you're possessed by a daemon! ...

Interesting idea.  What I've been trying to get over is the idea that it is all safe unless you push yourself.

Another possibility I suppose would be some way of combining the degree of failure with the amount by which the threshold has been exceeded, with the higher that number the worse any likely attendant psychic phenomena are going to be.  So I would say that unlike in Dark Heresy psychic phenomena don't come in until threshold is exceeded, maybe unless you fail the power in some way?  And then perhaps whatever table of phenomena is used, as threshold is exceeded further it is possible to reach higher, and consequently more unpleasant, parts of the table?  It's an alternative to my previous suggestion and does require less book-keeping to an extent I imagine.

I'm going to disagree with the idea that they can "put up shields" against Taint.  That's kind of the point of Taint--it's everywhere, and in everything.  The act of "drawing on warp energy" is the Taint itself... If you get my drift

Fair enough, I still think that taking a longer amount of time and more care over the performance of the power should allow stronger abilities to be used with less risk, but perhaps that would be better represented by allowing the power to be split up into smaller pieces if performed over a longer period, such that each piece was not inherently dangerous?

[Kage2020]

Glad I've been of some help. 

[
You have, and thank you.  Sometimes all you need is a sounding board that confirms your ideas, shows you how silly you are, and so forth.

By which do you mean what do I think the tap and threshold of a Zeta Grade psyker should be? 

Erm, sorry, no.  At the moment I think that it would be useful to work on the idea that an "average" psyker, which I am arbitrarily assigned to Zeta Grade to mean "average active psyker," has a Tap of 3 and a Threshold of 10.  This would mean that they could, for example, read someone's mind about 3-ish times in a given period of time without having to "dip into the warp."  Of course, that "period" is also currently 9 hours...

If so not quite sure, in your interpretation of psychic powers, etc, how much power would you say a fireball matching my description would require?

Well, you mentioned that it should "detonate a car in 5-10 minutes," which is kind of confusing.  After all, if you set fire to a car then it's a question of where the fire burns.  On the other hand, if you mean to sustain sufficient damage to "blow up" a car, that's something different altogether. 

With a Tap of 3, that lowest of psykers is going to be able to read minds and fireball someone to the damage of a gun.  Ish.

As to what tap should be in relation to threshold my initial tendency would be to say that tap should be double threshold, but then I also think that tap should probably increase at a faster rate as one ascends the grades than threshold.

I had Tap increasing at 50% rather than the 25% of Threshold, such that the ability to access the warp would eventually surpass the safety of touching it at those levels.  The only problem is that you run into the systemic limitation that past a certain level, Tap doesn't make that much of a difference (i.e. around 25 or so, and then you're potentially decimating quite a bit of the universe!).

Actually that does make some sense, as I would probably also say that somewhere in the unconscious psychic activity band, maybe around Mu or Nu threshold should reach equality with tap, in other words it is not possible for the person to draw more power than is safe...

Once you go below a certain threshold, I personally wouldn't even model it with the same rules.

On a side note I think Recovery should also tend to increase with grade but that it should just be a tendency rather than a fixed progression.

As our discussion continues, I'm tending to agree with you on this one.  I was going to go with a fixed rate, but that doesn't really seem to fit the setting...

Fair enough, I think I had perhaps not quite gathered that Calamity was a lesser thing than taint, possibly because it sounds, well calamitous 

Well, the idea here is that Calamity is immediate while Taint is... insidious.

Another possibility I suppose would be some way of combining the degree of failure with the amount by which the threshold has been exceeded, with the higher that number the worse any likely attendant psychic phenomena are going to be.

That's already included.  The more that you draw past Threshold, the nastier the effect of the Calamity.  Further, the more Taint that you have, the more permanent the effects of the "psychic phenomena" equivalent are.

So I would say that unlike in Dark Heresy psychic phenomena don't come in until threshold is exceeded, maybe unless you fail the power in some way?

Those are my thoughts on the matter, too...

And then perhaps whatever table of phenomena is used, as threshold is exceeded further it is possible to reach higher, and consequently more unpleasant, parts of the table?  It's an alternative to my previous suggestion and does require less book-keeping to an extent I imagine.

Ditto.  And that's how it currently operates.

Fair enough, I still think that taking a longer amount of time and more care over the performance of the power should allow stronger abilities to be used with less risk, but perhaps that would be better represented by allowing the power to be split up into smaller pieces if performed over a longer period, such that each piece was not inherently dangerous?

Doesn't that sound a little bit like... sorcery?



Kage

[Dragon Lord]

Erm, sorry, no.  At the moment I think that it would be useful to work on the idea that an "average" psyker, which I am arbitrarily assigned to Zeta Grade to mean "average active psyker," has a Tap of 3 and a Threshold of 10.  This would mean that they could, for example, read someone's mind about 3-ish times in a given period of time without having to "dip into the warp."  Of course, that "period" is also currently 9 hours...

Just to check again Tap is the maximum power that can be drawn safely in any single used of power and threshold is then the maximum warp power you can draw safely in the recovery period, which at the moment for a zeta grade is 9 hours?

Well, you mentioned that it should "detonate a car in 5-10 minutes," which is kind of confusing.  After all, if you set fire to a car then it's a question of where the fire burns.  On the other hand, if you mean to sustain sufficient damage to "blow up" a car, that's something different altogether. 

With a Tap of 3, that lowest of psykers is going to be able to read minds and fireball someone to the damage of a gun.  Ish.

I did mean sufficient damage to blow up a car, but then that is also tempered by the fact that in that mode you are unlikely to be able to hit something smaller than a stationary car.  To make the fireball more accurate would also require using less power in my mind, so if you wanted to hit a person the accuracy required would probably reduce it to more like a burst of bullets in power.
Ah better thought as to the power levels I mean, the can-hit-a-parked-car accuracy would be as powerful as a bolt shell (and thus quite capable of blowing up a car if it hits the engine or the fuel tank (rather like that giant shotgun Arnold Schwarzenegger used in terminator 2) whereas can-hit-a-person accuracy would probably be more like a normal shotgun or maybe slightly less.
But then also as I said I was going by 'standard sanctioned Imperial psyker'  I don't know if that would be a zeta grade.

That would definitely then be all of their tap used up after that, and possibly they might only be able to do 2 of them rather than 3 I'm not set on 3, I would also be fine with a recovery time of more than 9 hours.
Then again I was also basing my thoughts on exceeding the threshold being really quite bad and not something one would want to do if at all possible, if only exceeding it a little is not that bad then I wouldn't have a problem with a fireball being up to Tap 6 and thus firing off 2 exceeding the threshold by 2.
Just so that you know so you can inform your own interpretations of what my thinking is my imaginary scenario was this:  You (the psyker) and whatever group you are with (or maybe by yourself) are being chased by the police/a mob/similar and they have chased you into an alley way where if you can delay them for a while and make them distracted (and maybe kill a few if lucky) you can get away, if you don't then they will kill you.  As such you fire off 3 (or possibly only 2) large, fairly powerful but relatively unfocused fireballs at the vehicle your persuers arrived in, or just happen to be parked nearby, with the intention of detonating the vehicles, thus throwing the attackers into disarray, maybe wound or kill a few off them and rob them of their transportation, giving you the opportunity to escape.
I would then picture someone a few grades above the average sanctioned psyker being able to barricade themselves into a building and lob similar fireballs out at a rate of 2 or 3 every 10 minutes or so all day if need be.

Another thought that just occured to me is that a sanctioned psyker should have a higher threshold, but perhaps lower tap than an un-sanctioned one, as this is basically the purpose of sanctioning, to make psykers more stable and less vulnerable to warp phenomena/daemons, etc.

As to what tap should be in relation to threshold my initial tendency would be to say that tap should be double threshold, but then I also think that tap should probably increase at a faster rate as one ascends the grades than threshold.

Sorry if the interpretation of Tap I put at the top of the reply is correct I had got a bit confused here between tap and threshold so just ignore this.

The only problem is that you run into the systemic limitation that past a certain level, Tap doesn't make that much of a difference (i.e. around 25 or so, and then you're potentially decimating quite a bit of the universe!).

I suppose that depends on what the difference in tap is between various powers, if as you seem to be suggesting that mind reading is Tap 3, then Tap 25 doesn't seem that huge, thats only 8 times the Tap required for mind reading, attempting to mind-control another person should be at least Tap 10 if mind-reading is 3 so 25 doesn't seem quite planet-wide catastrophe level yet.

Well, the idea here is that Calamity is immediate while Taint is... insidious.

I suppose but I just think it would be better if Calamity was called Warp Phenomena because that would apply to the less calamitous effects, like psychic ice, as well.

Doesn't that sound a little bit like... sorcery?

Yes it does a bit I suppose, but then psychic powers in 40k are a bit like sorcery, after all chaos psykers are generally called sorcerers...

The thought occurs to me that if you have a file or anything with things like the calamity table and how they depend on how much threshold is exceeded and what Tap various psychic powers would be that would be helpful.

[CELS]

Sorry that I have not yet contributed to this thread. I hope to contribute more in time.

For now, I'd just like to comment that 'sorcery' is a very specific use of the warp, or at least that's how it's traditionally been in the ASP. The difference between a sorceror and a psyker, according to established ASP lore (as I understand it), is that psykers use a special talent to draw energy from the warp and accomplish the super-natural in the Matterium, whereas sorcerors do the same by using some kind of material catalyst. A sorceror may or may not be a psyker, the point is that some kind of material component is central to the use of power. Whether the act of sorcery is painting the ground with blood while chanting, or assembling a series of warp-tainted stones in a certain position, or getting a bunch of cultists to commit suicide... it's all sorcery. And sorcery is far more dangerous than regular use of psychic powers, which is why the Emperor forbad the Thousand Sons from using sorcery. It is, perhaps, also why Magnus the Red broke down the Emperor's psychic defences when using sorcery to warn the Emperor of Horus. Sorcery is just dangerous and insidious.

Like dark side powers in Star Wars 

Well, I could be wrong about that last part.

[Kage2020]

Once again, thanks for everyone that is contributing.  I'm beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel, so keep it coming!

Just to check again Tap is the maximum power that can be drawn safely in any single used of power and threshold is then the maximum warp power you can draw safely in the recovery period, which at the moment for a zeta grade is 9 hours?

Yes, Tap is the maximum power that you can draw at any given time unless you "force" the power, drawing directly from the warp and therefore automatically engendering Calamity and Taint.  Threshold is the amount of energy that you can draw before it becomes dangerous, your soul "lights up," and you begin to acquire Taint for the use of your abilities.  In a given period of time (8 hours), you recover an amount of energy equal to your Recovery (e.g. Threshold 10 and Recovery 8, and you've used 20 points of energy--in 8 hours you'll be down to 12, which is still over your Threshold, in 16 hours you'll be down to 6 meaning that you've got 4 energy left that is "safe," and only after 22 hours will you have gone back to 0).

I did mean sufficient damage to blow up a car, but then that is also tempered by the fact that in that mode you are unlikely to be able to hit something smaller than a stationary car.

To blow up a car just means that you need to strike it in a "vital area," or specifically target the gas tank.  In which case then, yes, it is entirely possible to "blow up a car" with a Tap of 3, although it is not necessarily easy.  (With a Tap 3, you're doing 6d6 burning damage, or an average roll of 21, which is more than enough to burn through the gas tank, but you're not going to reduce it to "wrecked ashes.")

At Tap 3, you're probably dealing more with anti-personnel damage.

To make the fireball more accurate would also require using less power in my mind, so if you wanted to hit a person the accuracy required would probably reduce it to more like a burst of bullets in power.

Accuracy is a function of the skill use, yes.

But then also as I said I was going by 'standard sanctioned Imperial psyker'  I don't know if that would be a zeta grade.

Class (Primary, Secondary) is not a function of Grade, so a Zeta Grade can be "sanctioned" by the Imperium.

That would definitely then be all of their tap used up after that, and possibly they might only be able to do 2 of them rather than 3 I'm not set on 3, I would also be fine with a recovery time of more than 9 hours.

The type of damage that can be done is roughly equivalent to an assault carbine of the modern world...

Then again I was also basing my thoughts on exceeding the threshold being really quite bad and not something one would want to do if at all possible, if only exceeding it a little is not that bad then I wouldn't have a problem with a fireball being up to Tap 6 and thus firing off 2 exceeding the threshold by 2.

It's not something that you want to do, no, but it is something that you can do.  If you go past your Threshold, you acquire Taint.  The effect of Taint while it is "active" is broadly:

• Decrease Threshold.
• Increase Tap.
• Act as a "weirdness magnet" factor to the lower extents of Dark Heresy psychic phenomenon--milk souring, flames burning a different colour, dogs barking, etc.
  
• Act as a negative social modifier.
• Acts as the "daemonic possession" table, with 9/10 (IIRC) indicating possession...

You can "buy off" Taint by taking insanities, mutation, premature ageing, or anything else that you can at a 5 point disadvantage per Taint point.  For example, you could Shorten your lifespan (-10 points), become Sadistic (-15 points), think that you hear daemonic or ghostly voices (-5 to -15 points; the thing is that at high levels of Taint these are also real), and so forth.

Eventually the psychically-engendered mental disadvantages will make it hard to play the character, so you might begin to take more mutations, or worse disadvantages in general...

This is the slippery road to Chaos Spawn and corruption that I want to engender mechanically, but of course it will be enhanced with the narrative descriptions.

If that all makes sense?  (And commentary welcome.)

Just so that you know so you can inform your own interpretations of what my thinking is my imaginary scenario was this... [snip]

That would basically work, although the chances are that they're going to want to go beyond that Threshold.  (Incidentally, I forgot to mention that you can buy extra Threshold in character generation or through XP/experience.  It's just the Tap that is very difficult to increase.)

I would then picture someone a few grades above the average sanctioned psyker being able to barricade themselves into a building and lob similar fireballs out at a rate of 2 or 3 every 10 minutes or so all day if need be.

Throwing out Tap 3 fireballs at the lower rate (2/10 minutes) with a Recovery of 8 (say) and really only assuming that "all day" is 8 hours or so, would require 88 points of energy.  That might be a tad... high?

With a higher Tap, say in the realm of 7 or so (?), you would be doing more damage with your "fireball," or be able to use enhancements such as "explosive," or "armour penetrationg" to make them far more effective.  You would also have that increased Threshold...

I just don't think that it would work to give them a Threshold that high (linear)... It would mean that, more or less, a  Delta-grade psyker would never really have to fear Taint...

Of course, this is a part of the process, so once we have some suggested values, I can model this more accurately.

Another thought that just occured to me is that a sanctioned psyker should have a higher threshold, but perhaps lower tap than an un-sanctioned one, as this is basically the purpose of sanctioning, to make psykers more stable and less vulnerable to warp phenomena/daemons, etc.

The description of Primary psykers is that it makes you more resistant to what would be Taint, rather than effecting Tap (which determines Grade).  Threshold might be included in the bundle, though.  Good idea.

I suppose that depends on what the difference in tap is between various powers, if as you seem to be suggesting that mind reading is Tap 3, then Tap 25 doesn't seem that huge, thats only 8 times the Tap required for mind reading, attempting to mind-control another person should be at least Tap 10 if mind-reading is 3 so 25 doesn't seem quite planet-wide catastrophe level yet.

Erm, to put it in perspective, probing someones mind (getting the answer to one question) is a Tap 2 power.  Reading someones surface thoughts is a Tap 3 power, while mentally dominating them is a Tap 5.  Possession is Tap 10.  These are all the base values, though.  If you leave the "mind controlled" individual with no memories of what you or they have done, it becomes a Tap 6 ability.  While our "fireball" is Tap 3, giving it an area effect of, say, 16 yards turns it into a Tap 6 power... Making that strip through tons of armour makes it a Tap 12 power...

In fact, now that I think about, the only powers that require excessive Tap are those that compound--damaging abilities, such as our "fireball," telekinesis, some aspects of pyrokinesis (temperature control), and so forth.  We already have our Tap 3 "fireball" able to blow up a car if you hit the gas tank (or set the insides on fire), whereas a Tap 3 "telekine" would be able to lift about 57 lbs.

Are all these figures kind of putting into perspective what our "Tap 3" Zeta Grade might be able to do?

I suppose but I just think it would be better if Calamity was called Warp Phenomena because that would apply to the less calamitous effects, like psychic ice, as well.

True, true.  I'm calling it Calamity merely because I'm on a reflex--that is what it is referred to in the Threshold-limited Magic rules from GURPS 4e Thaumatology.

Yes it does a bit I suppose, but then psychic powers in 40k are a bit like sorcery, after all chaos psykers are generally called sorcerers...

Sorcery, I feel, is going to act in a separate manner, even if it is going to be related to the same overall scheme.

The thought occurs to me that if you have a file or anything with things like the calamity table and how they depend on how much threshold is exceeded and what Tap various psychic powers would be that would be helpful.

To be honest, I was going to pilfer to the descriptions from Dark Heresy, since them and some of the "Perils of the Warp" are quite appropriate for Calamity.  Calamity is, however, a 3d6+(excess/5) roll, with Taint being acquired at the same rate (excess/5).  So if you could actually manage to not go beyond Threshold+4, you still wouldn't do too badly...

As to producing the "Warp Phenomena" list here... I'm just being lazy and I haven't really produced it yet...

Sorry that I have not yet contributed to this thread. I hope to contribute more in time.

It would be most welcome.

Like dark side powers in Star Wars 

Well, I could be wrong about that last part.

Although there is a similarity, at least in how West End Games handled "Dark Side points" in their d6 Star Wars game.  Taint was inspired by that, actually--the idea that you allow people to have the power if they're willing to suffer the consequences of using them.

Kage

[CELS]

Well, I finally had time to have a closer look at this thread. Well, at least the first post and then some of the discussion between Kage and Dragon Lord.. My first impression is that I like what we've got here so far. The first post in this thread basically had me nodding all the way through. The bad news is that it's nothing new, but the good news is that the bad news aren't actually bad. It's actually an accurate system (or foundation for a system) based on what I've read. Of course, I find myself handicapped by not having read very much of the Dark Heresy material at all. But that's alright, because the stuff that I have read has scared me away. So, all in all, good job so far.

Now, let's see if I can be helpful....

In regards to the progression of power between the different grades, I have the same gut reaction as Dragon Lord - it feels better to have it as exponential. So the difference between Iota and Theta would be insignificant compared to the difference between Beta and Alpha, and especially Alpha and Alpha Plus.
I do see the problem with psykers snapping their fingers to destroy titans, but I wouldn't say that it's impossible. It's just extremely rare, to the point where only the Emperor and a few other psykers would have that kind of power. Of course, the Emperor's powers weren't really of that nature. He seems better at telepathy than telekinesis, fortunately. But I digress. The point is, I could easily imagine that a Alpha Plus psyker would be able to destroy a titan at a push. But remember how Eisenhorn's powers were significantly augmented by his staff? Well,  I think you could take an Alpha class psyker, with certain sorcerous augmentations, place him in the Eye of Terror where the boundary between Matterium and Immaterium is thin, and he'd be a very scary person indeed. But we may disagree here. Perhaps we can at least agree on the progression of power.

In regards to the average psyker, I would actually have to say that I prefer the average psykers in 4th edition 40k compared to the psykers in 2nd edition. In 2nd edition, Imperial psykers were practically wizards, sporting long beards and capes, rivalling all but the most powerful Eldar psykers. In 4th edition, the Imperial psykers were reduced to half-insane, tortured beings, standing on the edge of a cliff. And I rather like that. I don't see the average psyker being able to engage in a fantasy-like fireball and lightning bolt firefight. The average unsanctioned psyker will hardly be able to do anything useful at all, unless he really 'lets go' and risks losing control. The average sanctioned psyker will constantly have to be pushed towards the limit of his abilities in order to satisfy the needs of his superiors. Astropaths are burned out, psykers attached to the Imperial Guard are as likely to die by their own hand in the end than being killed by the enemy. I don't buy into the total randomness GW considers fun in 4th edition, mind you. While the average sanctioned psyker in the Imperial Guard would certainly have limited powers, they would have to be useful.

So how powerful is the average sanctioned psyker? Well, while he probably isn't able to cast fireballs and chain lightning spells without great personal risk, he could still be potentially dangerous. For the combat-oriented ones;
- Pyromancy: Make your single target self-combust. Not immolate. Not instant kill. But set them on fire.
- Telepathy: Being able to read minds to a certain degree. Not having full access to a person's thoughts and lifetime memories, but getting a sense of what they're thinking and maybe getting a flash of what they're seeing.
- Biomancy: Force choke

You could say that my view is 'grimdark' in the sense that I like most human psykers to be relatively feeble. But I do share Kage's dislike of the fantasy approach. I don't want the Astra Telepathica to be like Harry Potter's Hogwarts or the Jedi in Star Wars. I want the warp to be more dangerous and uncontrollable. 'Chaotic' and insidious.

[Dragon Lord]

To blow up a car just means that you need to strike it in a "vital area," or specifically target the gas tank.  In which case then, yes, it is entirely possible to "blow up a car" with a Tap of 3, although it is not necessarily easy.  (With a Tap 3, you're doing 6d6 burning damage, or an average roll of 21, which is more than enough to burn through the gas tank, but you're not going to reduce it to "wrecked ashes.")

That's sort of what I was going for actually, I wasn't expecting them to reduce the car to wrecked ashes just to be able to burn through the fuel tank or the engine putting the car beyond immediate use, cause a bit of disruption and confusion and perhaps a nice explosion if the fuel tank is caught full on.

Class (Primary, Secondary) is not a function of Grade, so a Zeta Grade can be "sanctioned" by the Imperium.

Yes I gathered that but obviously below a certain point they Imperium wouldn't bother with them and also I presume there are more psykers at the lower levels than the higher levels, so what the 'average' of all Imperial psykers would be is difficult to determine (further complicated by the non-linearity of the scale).

Throwing out Tap 3 fireballs at the lower rate (2/10 minutes) with a Recovery of 8 (say) and really only assuming that "all day" is 8 hours or so, would require 88 points of energy.  That might be a tad... high?

Yes I suppose thinking back to the idea I had in my head they wouldn't actually be firing off fireballs on a continuous basis the whole time, and yes 'all day' would likely be no more than 8 hours, probably less actually.  If they were holed up for 5 hours (still rather a long time to be stuck in a building with people trying to kill you) and firing off on average 6 fireballs in an hour that would require by my calculations a total of 90 points of energy (though I get 288 rather than 88 for the previous example).  I was presuming that Recovery would also tend to decrease as one goes up the grades, though I can see that this might still be rather high.  The other problem is matching up the differences I was thinking about in my head with the different grades, it is quite possible it would be more appropriate to think of the psyker throwing off fireballs at a prodigous rate as a gamma or even a beta rather than a delta.
I'll try and direct my hypothetical situations along more useful lines in future.

Sorcery, I feel, is going to act in a separate manner, even if it is going to be related to the same overall scheme.

Fair enough, I still think there ought to be some way of decreasing the risk associated with performing a psychic power by going about it very carefully, but perhaps it can be handled differently (or maybe I am still not probably dissociating sorcery from psychic abilities).  We would also need to work out how to handle psychic foci like Eisnhorn's staff as CELS mentioned.

To be honest, I was going to pilfer to the descriptions from Dark Heresy, since them and some of the "Perils of the Warp" are quite appropriate for Calamity.  Calamity is, however, a 3d6+(excess/5) roll, with Taint being acquired at the same rate (excess/5).  So if you could actually manage to not go beyond Threshold+4, you still wouldn't do too badly...

Fair enough, that's what I wanted to know with regards to Calamity/Taint, I'll dip into Dark Heresy and remind myself of the psychic ability related stuff.

I do see the problem with psykers snapping their fingers to destroy titans, but I wouldn't say that it's impossible. It's just extremely rare, to the point where only the Emperor and a few other psykers would have that kind of power.

I was thinking the same thing with regards to the rarity of psykers with that kind of power.

In 4th edition, the Imperial psykers were reduced to half-insane, tortured beings, standing on the edge of a cliff. And I rather like that. I don't see the average psyker being able to engage in a fantasy-like fireball and lightning bolt firefight. The average unsanctioned psyker will hardly be able to do anything useful at all, unless he really 'lets go' and risks losing control. The average sanctioned psyker will constantly have to be pushed towards the limit of his abilities in order to satisfy the needs of his superiors.

Fair enough, I agree to some extent, though I do think that on some occasions it has gone too far in that direction.  I agree about low grade (which probably equates to average) unsanctioned psykers, higher grades would be able to do more, but would still probably be somewhat more unstable than their sanctioned counterparts.

I broadly agree with CELS examples of how powerful an average sanctioned psyker would be, though I consider his pyromancy example to be similar to throwing a single fireball (as I think causing spontaneous combustion would be a bit more difficult due to accuracy, but a bit less powerful in terms of damage and thus balancing out to be about the same).

[Da Boss]

In regards to the average psyker, I would actually have to say that I prefer the average psykers in 4th edition 40k compared to the psykers in 2nd edition. In 2nd edition, Imperial psykers were practically wizards, sporting long beards and capes, rivalling all but the most powerful Eldar psykers. In 4th edition, the Imperial psykers were reduced to half-insane, tortured beings, standing on the edge of a cliff. And I rather like that. I don't see the average psyker being able to engage in a fantasy-like fireball and lightning bolt firefight. The average unsanctioned psyker will hardly be able to do anything useful at all, unless he really 'lets go' and risks losing control. The average sanctioned psyker will constantly have to be pushed towards the limit of his abilities in order to satisfy the needs of his superiors. Astropaths are burned out, psykers attached to the Imperial Guard are as likely to die by their own hand in the end than being killed by the enemy. I don't buy into the total randomness GW considers fun in 4th edition, mind you. While the average sanctioned psyker in the Imperial Guard would certainly have limited powers, they would have to be useful.

I tend to agree

There is absolutely horrible description of of the life of some sanctioned psykers in the latests Guants Ghosts novel - really quite tragic .....they seem to be often used as last resort battlefield artillary as well in several novels..........

As I see it ........(and some won't like it) the only real powerful and in control Imperial Psykers are Astartes, Inqusition, Navigators and Astropaths.

[CELS]

Fair enough, I still think there ought to be some way of decreasing the risk associated with performing a psychic power by going about it very carefully, but perhaps it can be handled differently (or maybe I am still not probably dissociating sorcery from psychic abilities).  We would also need to work out how to handle psychic foci like Eisnhorn's staff as CELS mentioned.

It would certainly be great if we could get a compatible system for psykers right away, which can later be combined with a system for sorcery and pariahs. Just like a good scientific theory should be compatible with other theories, it would be best if we didn't have to create a whole new terminology for sorcerors and pariahs. For example, one can imagine that sorcery still depends on Warp Tap, Threshold/Tolerance, Taint, Calamity and Recovery rate.

For sorcerors, I think warp tap and recovery rate would depend on the resources available to them, in addition to their personal skills. For example, you can sacrifice a thousand people to cast a storm spell. The power of the storm depends on how many people you sacrifice at the same time. The recovery rate depends on how many resources you have available. Which means a sorceror basically has unlimited power if he has unlimited resources. But each spell still has a chance of causing a critical failure or taint, especially if the sorceror's own psychic ability is used. Taint and calamity still applies as normal. Threshold also applies, although stuff like hexagrammic wards would increase the threshold in the same way as a Space Marine Librarian's psychic hood.

For pariahs, the background suggests that you can increase the power of their nothingness. From a small void in the warp to a vast shadow, the most dangerous pariahs can affect psykers (and other people) at greater distances. Those who are simply untouchables feel slightly odd, whilst Culexus assassins are far more horrible and all but impossible to be around unless shielded. So here, a sort of negative warp tap seems appropriate. I'd also suggest that taint and calamity is still possible, even though I don't particularly like it. Dan Abnett featured an untouchable character in one of his novels who was actually deprived of his power after being in contact with a particularly powerful daemon. So even when using "negative psychic powers", there seems to be a chance of something going wrong. You could actually lose your negative warp tap. Perhaps other consequences are possible too. Not chaos taint, I think, but death could certainly be an option. Recovery rate is probably the same. Culexus assassins are bad ass, but unleashing their negative psychic energy around the clock seems a bit much.

Fair enough, I agree to some extent, though I do think that on some occasions it has gone too far in that direction.  I agree about low grade (which probably equates to average) unsanctioned psykers, higher grades would be able to do more, but would still probably be somewhat more unstable than their sanctioned counterparts.

Well, I don't think there's going to be much disagreement about what delta, gamma, beta and alpha class, because Dan Abnett's novels give many examples of these. But agreeing on the lowest levels might be trickier.

I broadly agree with CELS examples of how powerful an average sanctioned psyker would be, though I consider his pyromancy example to be similar to throwing a single fireball (as I think causing spontaneous combustion would be a bit more difficult due to accuracy, but a bit less powerful in terms of damage and thus balancing out to be about the same).

Well, it's all about how far you need to bend or break the laws of physics to accomplish the 'spell'. To make someone combust, you just need to increase the temperature (molecular movement) of their bodies or equipment. To make their body burts into flames, the temperature would have to be very high indeed. But how hot do clothes need to be before they light up? And if, for example, you want to burn a stack of paper, you just need to increase their temperature to something like 250 degrees celsius for a very short amount of time.

To actually create a fireball, you need to do a bit more than that. You're basically superheating air while keeping the air around yourself cool and then somehow keeping the superheated air in the shape of a sphere, hurtling towards your enemy, without risking damage to yourself. Typically, psykers firing fireballs will survive the affair without as much as first degree burns in their hands. To me, this seems far trickier. And in order to keep control of the fireball, it seems psykers would have to send it forward at a slow speed, as opposed to the speed of a bullet, thus requiring that they maintain the temperature far longer than what would be necessary if they just wanted to set something on fire with a flash of heat.

Maybe this is nit-picking or losing track of the big picture. Sorry

There is absolutely horrible description of of the life of some sanctioned psykers in the latests Guants Ghosts novel - really quite tragic .....they seem to be often used as last resort battlefield artillary as well in several novels..........

Well, I haven't read that novel, so I can't really comment. But I do see them very much as specialist, in the same way as medics, demolition experts and flamethrower crews. You don't send the demolition expert first, lobbing grenades and bombs left and right. He has a limited amount of explosives, maybe enough for one or two jobs in a whole battle. Maybe he's not used at all, because there aren't any situations where a demolitions expert is needed. Same for psykers. I don't really see them standing side by side with the Imperial Guardsmen in the trenches, unleashing volleys of fireballs as they unleash volleys of lasgun shots.

As I see it ........(and some won't like it) the only real powerful and in control Imperial Psykers are Astartes, Inqusition, Navigators and Astropaths.

Well, depends on what you mean by real powerful. What do you do with a primary grade beta class psyker who doesn't have the body needed to be a Space Marine, the intelligence and skill to be an Inquisitor, the mutation of a Navigator or the telepathic ability of an Astropath? I do think that the Adeptus Astra Telepathica has some very powerful battle psykers. They're just very, very rare. If the Imperium receives a crippled beta class psyker who can throw wicked fireballs, I don't think they'd use him as an astropath or Navigator

[Kage2020]

As always, thanks for your replies guys ('n' gals, just in case... ). 

In regards to the progression of power between the different grades, I have the same gut reaction as Dragon Lord - it feels better to have it as exponential.

As above, though, you run into a systemic problem.  The only abilities that require continual scaling are those that require damaging effect (our cliche fireball, areas of effect, telekinesis, etc.).  Most other abilities are going to work out between Tap 10 and 20 at most (depends on the ability, of course).

Of course, now that I look at this it isn't a problem.  All it does is reinforce that efficacy is determined sufficiently by lower Grades, and that all the higher Grade truly does is allow more crazy responses... Hmmn... Again, I'm seeing less of a problem now, so thanks for talking me through this, guys...

I do see the problem with psykers snapping their fingers to destroy titans, but I wouldn't say that it's impossible.

Yeah, but from the above, that's just sheer power, isn't it.  Sure, a lower Grade cannot quite do that, but the effective stuff...?  They can still do that.

In regards to the average psyker, I would actually have to say that I prefer the average psykers in 4th edition 40k compared to the psykers in 2nd edition...

Personally I really don't see my own campaigns taking a character up to anything past Delta (off the top of my head).  However, I'm always reticent to disregard the higher levels merely because of my comfort zone.  I personally feel that was the problem with Dark Heresy, but fair's fair--BI/FFG were not trying to create an all-encompassing system.

In 4th edition, the Imperial psykers were reduced to half-insane, tortured beings, standing on the edge of a cliff. And I rather like that.

I'm going to allow for that possibility with themed options, but I prefer to stick far from that as is humanly possible.  The purpose of this system is to actually remove some of the proscription from psykers, who are at least as iconic to the setting as Space Marines.  That's what Dark Heresy did under the guise of a balancing mechanic--punished the players to balance out their inherent power.  That's not particularly something that I'm up for.

With that said, I'm willing to explore to what extent you're thinking about "half insane, tortured beings..."  As it stands now, if psykers over-use their powers then they are going to go down the slippery route that can lead to these things.  At the same time, if they stay on the straight and narrow, their abilities are going to be diminished by their extreme paranoia (probably something that is rammed down their throat during their training, hence the Psykana Mercy Blade etc.).

So if the above paragraph basically encompasses what you're talking about, and I feel that it might, then all is froopy.  On the other hand if you would argue for something more, than again I'm willing to hear it!

I don't see the average psyker being able to engage in a fantasy-like fireball and lightning bolt firefight.

Well, if the GM allows you to take those abilities, then it is possible to have that fight... How long you can have it depends on your Grade, or perhaps how long you've taken practicing (increasing your Threshold).  With that said, I otherwise tacitly agree.

The average unsanctioned psyker will hardly be able to do anything useful at all, unless he really 'lets go' and risks losing control.

I think that it should be remembered that "sanctioning" doesn't inherently improve ones ability to touch the warp, and if anything can actually retard it (the aforementioned paranoia).

The average sanctioned psyker will constantly have to be pushed towards the limit of his abilities in order to satisfy the needs of his superiors. Astropaths are burned out, psykers attached to the Imperial Guard are as likely to die by their own hand in the end than being killed by the enemy.

In that case, that is what the system is designed to do.  The idea is to make Threshold and Tap low enough to encourage this type of activity, yes.  This is a part of the balancing act that I've been playing with for... sometime.  How do you balance the idea of a seductive system with that bat-shit crazy power levels that are sometimes ascribed to psykers.  I feel that, more or less, I've had the system for quite some time, but apparently I need to be nurse maided through the process.

- Pyromancy: Make your single target self-combust. Not immolate. Not instant kill. But set them on fire.

That's definitely do-able.  Setting clothes on fire, etc.  Getting the skin to burn would take a bit more of that scaled damage that I was referring to with the higher Grades.

- Telepathy: Being able to read minds to a certain degree. Not having full access to a person's thoughts and lifetime memories, but getting a sense of what they're thinking and maybe getting a flash of what they're seeing.

Again, do-able if they are talented in the Telepathic Discipline. 

- Biomancy: Force choke

Well, that power would be achievable in Telepathy, Telekinesis, and possibly Biomancy.

Yes I gathered that but obviously below a certain point they Imperium wouldn't bother with them and also I presume there are more psykers at the lower levels than the higher levels, so what the 'average' of all Imperial psykers would be is difficult to determine (further complicated by the non-linearity of the scale).

Below Iota is the level that you're talking about, yes, as mentioned in the table about the Assignment, above.  In posts before the publication of Dark Heresy, T.S.Luikart (a designer at the time) mentioned that for him the "average psyker Grade" would be Theta.

Personally?  I'm tempted to make it a bit more than that, since the Assignment seems clearly there to reinforce the idea that Alpha's are just way too powerful.

Fair enough, I still think there ought to be some way of decreasing the risk associated with performing a psychic power by going about it very carefully, but perhaps it can be handled differently (or maybe I am still not probably dissociating sorcery from psychic abilities).

That kind of thing smacks of ritualism, though.  Remember, the Witch is proscribed in the Imperium.  But if you have some specific examples of how this might be achieved, then as above I"m more than willing to listen.

We would also need to work out how to handle psychic foci like Eisnhorn's staff as CELS mentioned.

There are a number of ways this can be achieved, and depends on how you view them working:

• Increase Threshold. The device acts like a "power pool," or reservoir, and merely increases the safe amount of energy that is at their disposal.  This, for me, would be the most common type of psychic augmentation.
  
• Increase Tap.  This would increase the ability of the individual to access power, and for me would be the rarest type. 
  
  

Just where Eisenhorn's staff is on this list is up for grabs.

Fair enough, that's what I wanted to know with regards to Calamity/Taint, I'll dip into Dark Heresy and remind myself of the psychic ability related stuff.

Remember, though, that it will be not quite as... crazy.  None of this, "Oh, you rolled a 75 and then an 99.  Bummer.  You die.  Roll up another character."

As I see it ........(and some won't like it) the only real powerful and in control Imperial Psykers are Astartes, Inqusition, Navigators and Astropaths. '

Well, I think that the 'fluff' shows that here is a bit more variation than that, but I can definitely see why you are taking that stance.

It would certainly be great if we could get a compatible system for psykers right away, which can later be combined with a system for sorcery and pariahs.

Pariahs are, for me, already done.  They're modelled around a specific ability and related social (etc.) characteristics.

I also have notes/thoughts on how to model sorcerers, or those that have engaged in a Pact with a given warp entity, and how this relates to areas of "sanctity."

For example, you can sacrifice a thousand people to cast a storm spell. The power of the storm depends on how many people you sacrifice at the same time. The recovery rate depends on how many resources you have available. Which means a sorceror basically has unlimited power if he has unlimited resources. But each spell still has a chance of causing a critical failure or taint, especially if the sorceror's own psychic ability is used.

Indeed.  "Ritual Magic" certainly allows the generation of huge amounts of energy, but there are limitations even there. They might have God-given ability to Tap the warp, and the ability to generate a huge Threshold of available energy but...

Hmmn... You're right.  I need to think about this some more.

And if, for example, you want to burn a stack of paper, you just need to increase their temperature to something like 250 degrees celsius for a very short amount of time.

Just to give you some numbers to add fuel to the flame (ha, kaboom-tisch ):

• Unconsciousness due to heat: 120 F
• Water boils: 212 F
• Papers bursts into flame: 451 F
• Wood bursts into flame: 550 F
• Meat broils: 550 F
• Lead melts: 621 F
• Human flesh self-combusts: ~900F (IIRC)
• Copper melts: 1,980 F
• Iron Melts: 2,786 F

To actually create a fireball, you need to do a bit more than that. You're basically superheating air while keeping the air around yourself cool and then somehow keeping the superheated air in the shape of a sphere, hurtling towards your enemy, without risking damage to yourself.

Well, this is where the warp tends to get around physics.  Creating a Tap 3 "fireball" is about the same amount of energy that it would take a psyker to increase the ambient air temperature by about 120 degrees (though to do so would take 15 seconds rather than the instantaneous effect)...

Erm, just so you know.

Kage

[Da Boss]

Quote from: Da Boss on February 11, 2009, 11:53:00 AM
As I see it ........(and some won't like it) the only real powerful and in control Imperial Psykers are Astartes, Inqusition, Navigators and Astropaths.
Quote from CELS
Well, depends on what you mean by real powerful. What do you do with a primary grade beta class psyker who doesn't have the body needed to be a Space Marine, the intelligence and skill to be an Inquisitor, the mutation of a Navigator or the telepathic ability of an Astropath? I do think that the Adeptus Astra Telepathica has some very powerful battle psykers. They're just very, very rare. If the Imperium receives a crippled beta class psyker who can throw wicked fireballs, I don't think they'd use him as an astropath or Navigator

I think there are definately people outside my above examples who have either the power OR the control / finese/ skill but I am not sure there are those that have both but could be wrong?

Human Exceptions with are likely to be Illumaniti, heretics or renegades (or all three)

[Kage2020]

Personally I'm hoping to keep the system a bit more open than being viewed solely from the Imperial perspective.

So, anyone have any preferences with regards to the "scale" between Tap and Threshold by Grade?

The following was suggested over on Dark Reign...

Grade	Tap	Threshold	Base Points Cost
IOta	1	6	23
Theta	2	10	40
Eta	4	14	62
Zeta	6	20	90
Epsilon	8	26	118
Delta	11	32	151
Gamma	15	40	195
Beta	19	48	239
Alpha	24	58	294

The formula for calculating this is as follows:

For Tap:
y=1/400*x^2+1/600*x^3
    with: y=tap
and x a numerical value per grade, I started with Iota=16, and used increments of four,  so Theta=20, Eta=24 etc.

For Threshold:
y=1/40*x^2
   with: y=threshold
   and x is the same value per grade as above, for tap

(Both posted by Dvorn over on Dark Reign.)

Base points cost is +5/Tap and +3/Threshold.  (To put this in perspective, a "standard" starting character in most of my campaigns ends up with 150-200 points.)

Kage

[CELS]

Looks good to me, I think. Of course, it's hard to tell when I don't really have the same knowledge of what the different 'spells' cost, but from the examples given in this thread it seems alright. If you think these values will tempt players to step over the line and risk some taint, then it's all good.

To elaborate on my previous statements, I think that the way I'd like to see psykers would be to allow them to use their powers regularly with very little risk. After all, the galaxy is 'full' of rogue psykers and "witches", especially on the worlds with little or no Imperial control. While psykers are relatively few in numbers, it doesn't make sense for them to be ticking bombs that could, at any moment, be possessed by daemons and turned into living warp gates. If the risk of critical failure was that high, I would imagine that losing worlds to Chaos would be far more common. So as long as the psykers don't go overboard, I imagine they can keep pretty safe. Rogue psykers with a low grade might restrict themselves to simple 'spells' such as bending spoons, managing to live out their lives in obscurity without being immediately possessed by daemons.

However, since it is a grim future filled exclusively with war ( ), things aren't always that simple. For one thing, the Imperium seems to push it psykers to the edge of their sanity and beyond, resulting in astropaths burning out and dying at a young age. So while psykers are capable of using their powers in a relatively safe way, they might be put in situations where this is not an option. An Imperial battle psyker can't just inform his superiors that he doesn't want to use his powers today, because he has a slight headache. Instead, they push him to the limit, and just make sure to monitor him and keep a watchful eye and a loaded pistol close at all times. Alternatively, rogue psykers might find themselves pushed to their limts and beyond for various reasons. Whether using their powers to stay hidden, to serve their own selfish needs or in service of heretical masters, one can easily think of situations where rogue psykers become tainted and corrupted. But it would also be possible for a rogue psyker to live all his days as a hermit, only occassionally drawing on his powers to find fish or whatever.

So basically, I like the cruelty of 4th edition without the extreme dangers of the rules seen in Dark Heresy and 40k. Meanwhile, I think it should be possible for a disciplined psyker to use his powers with caution and avoid any significant amount of taint, but I don't want to go down the route of 2nd edition where psykers are robed, bearded wizards with an infinite supply of fireballs.

Having clarified my earlier statements, hopefully... it does seem like we're going in the right direction anyway. So that's cool.

I do feel very slightly worried that I might not agree with the nature and efficiency of the various 'spells' as listed in GURPS. Will we be copy-pasting those directly, or is there a chance we can modify them a bit to match our view of psychic powers? To be honest, I just want to get away from the image of mages and wizards as seen in fantasy such as Warcraft. Typical fantasy spells such as frost bolts and fire balls strike me as less common in 40k. And in terms of imagery, fireballs are just so dull