[Technology] Warp Tenders...

[Kage2020]

In the Traveller universe it was proposed that while jump-capable (interstellar) vessels were a great idea, the amount of space that they dedicated towards the machinery that permitted movement through "jumpspace" was an inherent limitation.  Thus, it was posited, that a military ship of x displacement tonnes would be superior to a jump ship of the same, x, displacement tonnage.  The reason was obvious: instead of having to have all the power plants and fuel required to allow the function of the interstellar drive.

As a result of this, one of the concepts introduced was the "Battle Tender," or a ship that would take sublight military ships into battle so that they would be able to operate on equal footing with the system defense boats.

So, back to 40k.  I was originally resistant to this idea because we have no real substantiation from the 'fluff,' but Phil a while back mentioned the idea of what would in essence be "warp tenders."  They would be huge, cavernous ships that were essentially warp-drives, habitat, and the rest is hangar space (maybe a bit of cargo, too).  The purpose of these ships is to warp jump from one place to another, and then open up their doors to allow the sublight ships out.

While I wouldn't want to make this 'standard' for Anargo given the lack of 'fluff' support, what do people say about exploring the potential between certain select worlds?  At least one or two of the major shipping routes?  It would be a pinch to stat it up in GURPS Starships for those that wanted that type of thing, but is this something that we would like to see?

Kage

[CELS]

Well, BFG features a type of ship called 'Defence monitors'.
"Defence monitors are dedicated defence ships crewed by Imperial Navy personnel, designed to hammer the enemy at close range. Much of the power generation systems are linked to armaments rather than engines, which means that they pack a lot of weaponry for their size, but are relatively hard to manoeuvre. However, when fighting an enemy who is intent on attacking a world and must therefore approach closely and directyl, this ungainly handling is not so much of a handicap."

I won't post the stats, but it's basically only slightly bigger than other escorts (it still has only a single hit point, compared to the eight hit points of a cruiser), but has fantastic armour, two shields instead of one, and the same amount of firepower as a light cruiser. On the flip side, it has 1/3 the speed of a Cobra class destroyer, which makes it almost entirely useless in an offensive capacity.

While GW doesn't explicitly say that this ship lacks a warp drive, it seems very likely, due to the sheer firepower of the ship. It is by far the most heavily armed escort-sized Imperial vessel in BFG. Only the Eldar have more firepower on escorts. In other words, I would definitely agree with the idea that the Imperial Navy makes use of warp tenders and dedicated system ships. In additon, BFG specifically mentions system ships as a separate category, though these are described as often having civilian crews and basically being inferior versions of Imperial Navy escorts, with roughly equivalent firepower.

There has to be a reason why the Imperial Navy prefers to equip most of its warships with warp drives, however, and this should be sorted out before one takes the idea of 'battle tenders' too far, otherwise you end up with a new piece of background that doesn't really fit in with the existing background (typical of fanmade additions to the Imperial Navy, actually). For example, one might imagine that the cost-effectiveness of warp drives has a rather U-sloped curve, where it's not really economically feasible to put a warp drive on a small shuttle, for example, but it's equally expensive to put warp drives on super-heavy barges. So while it's economically sound to build a medium-sized ship (2000 meters?) carrying very small ships (300 meters?), it's not a good idea to build a very large ship (5000 meters) carrying Navy-size escorts (800 meters)

[Kage2020]

Erm, sorry for the short post, but I just wanted to say that all sounds reasonable and consistent with what we have been working with for a while.  Thus, I'm guessing, we don't have a problem introducing "warp tenders" into some of the major routes of Anargo travel?

Kage

[CELS]

Civilian ones? I believe the idea of civilian warp tenders was introduced to the ASP several years ago. So no.

If you meant military ones, then the answer is still no, with the reasons listed above

[Dragon Lord]

I'm certain that warp tugs/warp tenders do exist, however I don't think that they would be used much in a military context.  I think the Imperium can build warp drives small and at a low enough cost that at least for vessels cobra sized and larger the additional versatility gained from having each ship able to travel between systems independently outweighs any slight cost benefits (if there are any at all considering that you need to build an extra, probably very large, ship too).  Now for the Tau on the other hand the situation is rather different, where they are only beginning to develop the technology to build warp drives small enough to be fitted into vessels smaller than a light cruiser, and as such larger vessels regularly carry smaller vessels into battle with them that then separate and fight individually.
Of course there are other reasons that the Imperium would use warp tugs/tenders, for example one imagines that space stations and other orbital defences are often not built around the world that they are intended to defend and so must be towed to their destination.  Even a Ramilies starfort, while it has a 'warp bubble generator' needs a number of tugs to manouevre it.

[Kage2020]

Civilian ones? I believe the idea of civilian warp tenders was introduced to the ASP several years ago. So no.

The concept of the "warp convoy" was introduced, IIRC, though not inherently the "warp tender," or a specific vessel dedicated to it.  While an entrenched part of the Traveller universe, and while Phil argued for their adoption in 40k in general, I merely thought that it would be interesting to revisit the concept in one or two of the major trade routes of the sector.

I think the Imperium can build warp drives small and at a low enough cost that at least for vessels cobra sized and larger the additional versatility gained from having each ship able to travel between systems independently outweighs any slight cost benefits (if there are any at all considering that you need to build an extra, probably very large, ship too).

But that's still 30%-odd of the ship that is taken up with warp generation gear, any specific power plants/capacitors related to the same, etc., that they could spend on extra weapons to bring to bear.  A Cobra that has been retrofitted to remove the warp drives and had that extra firepower introduced is going to be that much more effective where it counts than a non-retrofitted, warp-capable Cobra.

Of course, this gets into the thorny issue of just what a local world can do, what resources they have available to them, what they are permitted, etc., which then gets into relative totalitarianism, etc., etc.

Even a Ramilies starfort, while it has a 'warp bubble generator' needs a number of tugs to manouevre it.

An 800-1,000km + tug!?  Are you talking sublight now?  Are Imperial Commanders "allowed" to construct that big?  Do they have the resources?  What is the tech disparity between Imperium (military) and Imperium (everyone else) that does not vary obviously? 

Sublight "tugs" are not, I feel, an issue, but they're also not the topic of discussion here.  Rather, we're talking about a 'tender,' or as you identify with the Tau example, ships that bring non-warp capable ships to battle. 

With that said, I am thinking in this case purely of the non-military example to be exploited as a tender between the most industrious/populace/etc. of worlds in the sector.


It seems, however, that we can explore a grand 'ole dame of a warp tender between some major routes.  Does anyone have a preference as to which major route(s)?

Kage

[CELS]

The concept of the "warp convoy" was introduced, IIRC, though not inherently the "warp tender," or a specific vessel dedicated to it.  While an entrenched part of the Traveller universe, and while Phil argued for their adoption in 40k in general, I merely thought that it would be interesting to revisit the concept in one or two of the major trade routes of the sector.

With respect, I'm afraid you are mistaken. The idea of the warp tender was first discussed when we started thinking about names for the different types of Imperial ships (sprint traders, bulk carriers, etc), and then brought up again when I started creating Sketch-Up models (and modules) for Imperial starships. I still have a rather old "warp tender" module on my hard drive.

An 800-1,000km + tug!?  Are you talking sublight now?  Are Imperial Commanders "allowed" to construct that big?  Do they have the resources?  What is the tech disparity between Imperium (military) and Imperium (everyone else) that does not vary obviously? 

Huh? Where did you get that figure from? Starforts are several kilometers long, but definitely not hundreds of kilometers.

It seems, however, that we can explore a grand 'ole dame of a warp tender between some major routes.  Does anyone have a preference as to which major route(s)?

The ole Flavonian Course seems an obvious choice, both for safety reasons and the large amounts of traffic.

[Kage2020]

Ah fair enough.  I didn't remember that it was explored as being described herein, i.e. warp drive and that's about it.  Jump into the edge of the system, dropped off, collect, jump out.  What I seem to remember of most of your artwork was that it followed the traditional warp drive-drive into system stuff.

Flavonian Course... Seems a bit strange since it breaks up on the Abyss.

Starfort... Wasn't talking about that but, as it says, the tug itself.

Kage

[Dragon Lord]

But that's still 30%-odd of the ship that is taken up with warp generation gear, any specific power plants/capacitors related to the same, etc., that they could spend on extra weapons to bring to bear.  A Cobra that has been retrofitted to remove the warp drives and had that extra firepower introduced is going to be that much more effective where it counts than a non-retrofitted, warp-capable Cobra.

While this is true, if it then requires a battleship sized vessel that is mostly warp drive and docking apparatus to move a squadron of 6 such retrofitted cobras between systems it then becomes questionable whether it is viable, which is more the point I was making.  If warp drives have a relatively static (and high) cost largely independent of size then one can see the above situation as being viable if the other costs associated with constructing the large tender vessel do not outway the gains from the lack of warp drives in the escorts.  This is the case to some extent for the Tau (indeed it is actually not possible for them to make warp drives small enough to go in a cobra sized vessel) and thus here the concept is certainly viable (and is used extensively).  The Imperium however definitely does have the capability to produce warp drives small enough, and the ubiquitousness of the cobra suggests that to do so is not extortionately expensive, there is however considerable background that suggests that for the Imperium the costs of a vessel increase dramatically as its size increases (in contrast with the Tau for whom building battleship sized craft seems relatively cheap).
As such I don't really see the Imperium using 'warp tenders' for military purposes other than perhaps moving space stations, docks and defence platforms between systems (and most space stations, unlike the Ramilies do not have any means of entering the warp unassisted).  Though in these cases one could perhaps describe the vessels as 'warp tugs' rather than warp tenders as they might well be smaller than the constructs they are towing.

For civilian purposes it seems to be that if it would be more economical to have a 'warp tender' carrying many smaller transports between systems surely it would be more economical still to simply have a bigger transport operate the route?

An 800-1,000km + tug!?  Are you talking sublight now?  Are Imperial Commanders "allowed" to construct that big?

I agree with CELS I don't quite see where that figure came from, I could see light cruiser or cruiser sized tugs being required to move a Ramilies perhaps but a Ramilies isn't that big.
Although sublight tugs would certainly be required to move a starfort anywhere I didn't necessarily mean only sublight. The Ramilies is described in BFG Armada as being able to erect a warp-bubble over the entire structure enabling it, with the aid of seventeen navigators and an attendant fleet of utgs, supply ships, warships and system craft, to enter the warp and be towed to different star systems, which rather suggests that it does need tugs when in the warp as well, though it does also seem to suggest that other non-warp capable craft can hitch a ride when a Ramilies is moved.

[Kage2020]

The Imperium however definitely does have the capability to produce warp drives small enough, and the ubiquitousness of the cobra suggests that to do so is not extortionately expensive...

Aren't you just restating yourself?  I was merely pointing out that the non-warp capable Cobra's are theoretically going to be more effective than warp-capable Cobras.  That's all.  There's nothing really more convoluted than that and the recognition that the whole size of the ships is one of those contentious topics...

For example, are all sublight ships smaller than Imperial ships?  That's often the impression that I get when I see this kind of... discussions.

As such I don't really see the Imperium using 'warp tenders' for military purposes other than perhaps moving space stations...

And, you will note, that I stated that I was talking about non-military.

For civilian purposes it seems to be that if it would be more economical to have a 'warp tender' carrying many smaller transports between systems surely it would be more economical still to simply have a bigger transport operate the route?

Not necessarily.

I agree with CELS I don't quite see where that figure came from, I could see light cruiser or cruiser sized tugs being required to move a Ramilies perhaps but a Ramilies isn't that big.

What, getting less than 800 m for a warp capable craft now.  Are you crazy!  This is 40k!  Big ships are the only thing that make sense.

If it can generate a "warp bubble," why does it need a "warp tug" at all?  Seems a bit ludicrous given the model of interstellar travel being mentioned here.

Ah well.


Summary:

• I was talking about civilian tenders that don't travel in system.
• This nominally breaks the typical/traditional model of "big warp ship" goes into the system.
• A ship of a given displacement is going to be more effective in system than one with them for somewhat obvious reasons.
• I wasn't talking about military vessels.
• I was talking about civilian tenders between systems that just jump from one place to the other and don't go in system.  Why waste the fuel?
• So, no, it doesn't necessarily make sense to have one uber ship with uber warp drives and uber drives to go in system, when you can have x-number of smaller ships which do the same for you.  Otherwise we might as well have 8km long ships landing on a planet since it's all "economies of scale"...

Your mileage will obviously vary.

Kage

[CELS]

Ah fair enough.  I didn't remember that it was explored as being described herein, i.e. warp drive and that's about it.  Jump into the edge of the system, dropped off, collect, jump out.  What I seem to remember of most of your artwork was that it followed the traditional warp drive-drive into system stuff.

Well, it's a good thing, anyway.

Flavonian Course... Seems a bit strange since it breaks up on the Abyss.

Erm, what do you mean by saying that it breaks up? It certainly hits the Abyss, resulting in the Pendulum tide, but I was under the impression that it retains most of its momentum and continues towards the Eastern Fringe. Indeed, I've been working with that idea for quite a while now, and incorporated it in a lot of my material. Did I get the wrong idea here? If so, I'm surprised you didn't pick up on it. 

Starfort... Wasn't talking about that but, as it says, the tug itself.

Repeating my question, where did you get those figures from? Why would the tug have to be so big? I don't really see the problem of starforts being transported by tugs. 

[Dragon Lord]

What, getting less than 800 m for a warp capable craft now.  Are you crazy!  This is 40k!  Big ships are the only thing that make sense.   

Repeating my question, where did you get those figures from? Why would the tug have to be so big? I don't really see the problem of starforts being transported by tugs.

I think that perhaps in his original post Kage said 800-1000km (kilometres) when he meant 800-1000m (metres), though 800-1000m for a warp tug doesn't seem that big to me.

If it can generate a "warp bubble," why does it need a "warp tug" at all?  Seems a bit ludicrous given the model of interstellar travel being mentioned here.

It would depend on whether the 'warp bubble' is capable of being modulated in the same way as the Gellar Fields of another warp capable ship, if not then one imagines that it would need a tug, since otherwise it would be like a sailing ship with no masts.

I suppose I can see the point of a warp tender that travels between system jump points with the smaller vessels then travelling in system, but then you could also make a ship that leaves its warp drive block at the jump point if you wanted.

[Kage2020]

I think that perhaps in his original post Kage said 800-1000km (kilometres) when he meant 800-1000m (metres), though 800-1000m for a warp tug doesn't seem that big to me.

I didn't even realise that there was a typographic, though to be fair I think it should have been fairly obvious.  Thanks for pointing it out to me, Dragon Lord.

It would depend on whether the 'warp bubble' is capable of being modulated in the same way as the Gellar Fields of another warp capable ship, if not then one imagines that it would need a tug, since otherwise it would be like a sailing ship with no masts.

You're right.  I see it fairly pointless to have a warp bubble without being to change it, but I guess YMMV.

I suppose I can see the point of a warp tender that travels between system jump points with the smaller vessels then travelling in system, but then you could also make a ship that leaves its warp drive block at the jump point if you wanted.

So stealable...

Kage

[CELS]

Well, I'm glad we got that sorted then.