After 17,000 years...

[CELS]

What happens to a ship that is over 17,000 years old? It's so common in 40k that one rarely spends time thinking about it. Age is nothing but a number when it comes to Imperial starships, but is it really that simple? Our recent discussions have led to the idea that a lot of the old (and superior) technology from the original Venturer has now been lost and replaced. Its engines and powerplants, for one thing. But beyond that, I wonder what the ship would be like. Even with regular maintenance for several millennia, wouldn't there be some decay? Or would they be able to constantly repair and replace the broken parts? For the biggest Imperial ships, it's easy to imagine that some parts of the ship are simply neglected because they're not important to the operation of the ship. One could imagine a group of ratings escaping from their supervisors, hiding in the bowels of the ship and living out their lives in hiding. Perhaps their descendants would live for several generations?

But that doesn't seem realistic for the Venturer. It's a big ship, at 680 meters, but it's not exactly gargantuan. Would there be parts of the ship in year 470.M41 that were all but abandoned, made obsolete by damage, decay or new replacements? Any large chambers would be put to use as storage, even if they were stripped of their original machinery or other inventory. But would there be lots of smaller rooms, abandoned ventilation tunnels and pipes, not visited by the crew for centuries at a time?

I can't really imagine what other pecularities the ship would have after 17,000 years. A peculiar "machine spirit", I suppose. In the Eisenhorn novels, Dan Abnett explores the idea that material objects have a warp signature from being in contact with humans. A psychic could take a jacket and use it to see images of its wearer, or even conjure up a mirage of sorts. So what kind of psychic imprint would the Venturer have? What kind of warp signature would such old ships have? Would it perhaps make it more resistant to malign influences in the warp? Or would it actually make it more visible in the warp, drawing attention from warp predators? What is it like to be onboard the Venturer when it travels in the warp? Such an old ship, would it have ghosts, or perhaps just echoes and faint images and reflection of its former crew? One might imagine looking in the mirror and seeing a former crew member behind you in the bedroom, turning around and realising it was just a warp mirage.

Some parts of the ship would probably have been rebuilt after damage. I guess there might be a lot of dead ends, doors welded shut, that sort of thing.

Comments? Other ideas?

[Malika]

For some reason when dealing with Imperial technology I always have to think about Soviet/Russian technology. It´s somewhat "crude" and maintenance isn´t one of the strong points of the Russians, meaning that the tech will either be really good working (such as an AK 47) or have fatal problems (the nuclear submarine Kursk for example).

So yes, this would start to malfunction which would have big consequences for the ship. Maintenance needs to be performed on a regular basis for the ship to function effectively, however I doubt that is something that happens. So in time glitches would start to show.

As for empty parts with survivors in them. What about a less extreme example such as plant and animal life? I had to guard a flat building during the Christmas holidays for work and well, what I noticed was that life has a funny way of spreading itself. This flat building was abandoned for about a year or so and of the ten stories it had plantlife started to emerge from the seventh floor upwards. Molds and mushrooms growing around the sinks and toilets and even plants on certain floors. Birds were nesting in the top floor and insects managed to create their homes throughout the building.
Now imagine a spaceship of several hundreds (or thousands) of meters big, imagine what kind of lifeforms could be hiding in there! 

[Studio Colrouphobia]

Makes me think of an existenial problem-

Your great great grandfather had a hammer, it is now an heirloom.
When your grandfather had it, he had to replace the shaft of it as the wood had been damaged badly.
When your father had it, there where so many blemishes on the hammerhead that it had to be replace.

So you are sitting here with your great grandfathers hammer, where the hammer is an heirloom, but where none of the parts are original parts...is it still your great grandfathers hammer?




Point in case- I would think that everything on such a ship, if continuously in use for 17000 years, would have been exchanged during the time spent- which in turn mean that there doesn't really have to be any decay at all...



It can still maintain the same look as the original ship though- again to think metaphorically, concider the vats and boilers of single malt whiskey.
Sometimes they have to be exchanged, but the brewers will go over them with hammers and mallets to make sure every single crevice and indent still is there that was there on the old, now exchanged, vat or boiler....

[CELS]

For some reason when dealing with Imperial technology I always have to think about Soviet/Russian technology. It´s somewhat "crude" and maintenance isn´t one of the strong points of the Russians, meaning that the tech will either be really good working (such as an AK 47) or have fatal problems (the nuclear submarine Kursk for example).

Well, I don't really recall hearing about any fatal accidents for Imperial ships, like reactor meltdowns or engine failures. However, it does seem appropriate to have, say, medium sized accidents. Fires breaking out as a result of old wiring, contamination  from radioactive hardware, hangar force fields malfunctioning, etc. And then, some ships would be more prone to accidents than others. Some ships, like an AK47 could have parts replaced and be good as new. Other ships would be more fickle.
But which is the Venturer?

Now imagine a spaceship of several hundreds (or thousands) of meters big, imagine what kind of lifeforms could be hiding in there! 

Yes, indeed! Time to bring my alien direcats out of the archives. And did we ever finish working on those alien parasites?

So you are sitting here with your great grandfathers hammer, where the hammer is an heirloom, but where none of the parts are original parts...is it still your great grandfathers hammer?

Yeah, Kage raised this point already (although referring to the Venturer as the Grandfather's Axe).

Point in case- I would think that everything on such a ship, if continuously in use for 17000 years, would have been exchanged during the time spent- which in turn mean that there doesn't really have to be any decay at all...

Well, ships are expensive, so would the entire ship actually have been replaced, part by part, several times during its lifetime? Remember, this is the ship that was left in the docks for millennia, because no one could afford using it. Keeping the captain's quarters and mess hall nice and shiny is easily done, but how often could they replace all the parts in the ship's more expensive hardware? How often would they replace the bulkheads holding the ship together, if they haven't taken damage? If there's a huge metal girder inside the center of the hull, would they just say "Well, according to our database, that girder is 5000 years old tomorrow, so we have to take it out" ? Seems expensive. Wouldn't the replacements be more... serendipitous?

It can still maintain the same look as the original ship though- again to think metaphorically, concider the vats and boilers of single malt whiskey.
Sometimes they have to be exchanged, but the brewers will go over them with hammers and mallets to make sure every single crevice and indent still is there that was there on the old, now exchanged, vat or boiler....

Interesting. Did not know that. But how do you transfer that practice to a 17,000 year old space ship?

[Dragon Lord]

My guess would be that a component would only be replaced if it i necessary, thus I think it is quite possible that some bits of the ship might be 17,000 years old, particularly things like parts of the outer hull unlikely to have sustained any damage or corridors whose layout has not been altered.  Mechanical components are probably more likely to have worn out over the course of 17 millennia.  As such I think that quite probably most of the Venturer is newer than 17,000 years old, but there will be parts that are original and the age of the 'younger' parts will vary, some of them might still be very old.

As to parts of the Venturer that have fallen out of use, I imagine that it is possible there might be some small areas that have been abandoned/neglected, but probably not large or many.  It would probably consist mostly of things like storage cupboards or small rooms that were walled off accidentally (or maybe purposefully) during re-routing of corridors and access ways.

I do also quite like the idea of various forms of life thriving in parts of the Venturer, rats or equivalents if nothing else, perhaps there might even be tiny ecosystems in backwaters of the environmental control systems.

I rather like the idea of the Venturer having developed a low level warp signature after its millenia of contact with humans, it would make the captain talking to his ship not be entirely without reason!  My own thoughts would be to say that it would make the ship more resistant to malign influences, if for no other reason than the 'she's a tough old ship' thought, that is that old ships have been through many things and gotten through them before so can do so again.
I'm not sure if going all the way to ghosts is a good idea but occasional warp echoes/mirages might be good.

[Kage2020]

Personally I agree with Dragon Lord.  Some of the "hypertech" materials that are from the G/DAoT may survive to this day, although perhaps not the hull--that I see being downgraded.

I see the power plant being stripped out (perhaps being studied on some Forge world somewhere) along with the Antimatter rockets.  The computer would have been stripped down (but for the MI core, of course), and replaced with slighty "dumbed down" components (hence electromechanical computers--see RPG design).

The technology of the sensor array might have regressed somewhat, perhaps because of additional weapons (?), and the factory/refinery/etc. likely removed.  The Habitat area would, of course, be completely reconfigured. 

Along with the functional changes, you have the aesthetic ones.  Changes to artistry and finishing on components, etc.

It's actually a vast list that, outside of the mechanics by which the ship is abstracted, perhaps can only be represented in art, whether this is the "corridor" and the differences between the two periods, or the much more likely bridge.

Kage

[Studio Colrouphobia]

Well, ships are expensive, so would the entire ship actually have been replaced, part by part, several times during its lifetime? Remember, this is the ship that was left in the docks for millennia, because no one could afford using it. Keeping the captain's quarters and mess hall nice and shiny is easily done, but how often could they replace all the parts in the ship's more expensive hardware? How often would they replace the bulkheads holding the ship together, if they haven't taken damage? If there's a huge metal girder inside the center of the hull, would they just say "Well, according to our database, that girder is 5000 years old tomorrow, so we have to take it out" ? Seems expensive. Wouldn't the replacements be more... serendipitous?

Point here is that it is 17000 years old.
You have to concider that cathedrals in europe have had everything in them changed on them durig a meere 5-600 years.
Those cathedrals that are up to 1000-1600 years old have even had their bearing structures exchanged in some cases.

And there we are alking about less then a 10th of the timeframe we would be talking about when it comes t the venturer.

As for Technologypieces making it for this long-
That depends on how one views he ability to mend technology in 40k.

My opinion is that Techs (not ad. mechanucus, but actual technicians)  Can copy alot of the machineries workings, without understanding what it is they are doing-

To the same extent an illiterate can copy the bible perfectly (well, correct spelling in any case).

Coming back to the analogy on whiskey-boilers again:
You don't NOW that the dent in the boiler has an effect on the taste, but why take the risk? So we copy it


Of course, if one looks at ability to mend technology differently one will no doubt come to another conclusion...

Question is- can objects that are made out of materials that would be run-down and/or corroded by any atmosphere beyond recognition in under 5000years (which all known elements in technological parts we know of today, and thus likely atleast most elements in technological parts of the venturer, do) actually survive for 17000 years without ever being exchanged?

I can see ONE type of part that likely would be used in this kind of technology that can maintain relatively(!) whole for such a long time, and tht would be chrystals of various sorts, but they could hardly be the sum of parts in a technology like that of the Imperium of Man.

[Dragon Lord]

Point here is that it is 17000 years old.
You have to concider that cathedrals in europe have had everything in them changed on them durig a meere 5-600 years.
Those cathedrals that are up to 1000-1600 years old have even had their bearing structures exchanged in some cases.

While this is true one then has to consider that the Great Pyramid at Giza is over 4,500 years old and still largely intact and there are many ancient greek and roman structures of which substantial parts remain.  The majority of ancient structures that have not survived to the present day were destroyed by earthquakes or fires, etc rather than just falling apart through decrepitude.
If one then combines this with the apparent durability of the materials the Imperium uses, things like plasteel and adamantium, I don't find it unreasonable to suggest that some parts of the ship have laster 17,000 years, particularly parts that are not normally in contact with atmosphere and thus would not corrode in that way.  I'm certainly not suggesting that the entire ship will be 17,000 years old, or even most of it, but some parts at least.  Also though humanity did not necessarily have the same attitude during the Age of Technology, the Imperium certainly builds things to last, there are buildings and other structures that are millennia old all over the place.  There are also specific mentions of other ships that are of the same order of magnitude of age, the Divine Right (flagship of Battlefleet Gothic), being one that immediately springs to mind, it was recommissioned from a space hulk in M36, and while the same situation with many parts being replaced may well be the case, that you would recommission a space hulk that is likely several millennia old and then continue to use the resulting ship for over 4 millennia suggests you expect it to last.

[Kage2020]

Going to have to agree with Dragon Lord on the durability of the materials and how some of it is going to remain.  For example, some of the hull would most certainly have to be changed out due to micrometeriote (or even just dust!) damage over the centuries, though primarily leading edge materials... (Even assuming that you don't turn on the shields for this!)

Computer components are going to change (and its 'fluffy' to do this), but we also want to make sure that the "hardware" for the AI remains in some hidden part of the Control Room/Bridge so that it can interact in some way with the plot device that the Venturer remains (just a detailed plot device).

Etc.

In terms of actually what would have been changed, even look at the mass-based designs from GURPS Spaceships, pretty much everything has been replaced or altered in some way.  Again, though, that doesn't mean that there are not going to be some original components.  Just what, though, is up for us to decide.  I, for one, don't want any, "ancient technology from the day of yore" making the ship any more special than its somewhat unusual period of service and any story elements that we include as a result of that.

Kage

[Studio Colrouphobia]

Whilst you are very much allowed to have your opinions on things, and I shall not argue (much) more about it-
The validity of using the pyramids and roman temples (4-6000 year old, a third of the Venturer) as refferences for this thing seem a little out of place-

See many moving parts in those examples?
How about: They fly much?


There is a big difference between a vehicle and a stationairy object in the first place, add to it that this vehicle would be three times as old as any of those, that "more or less intact" is a very much debatable topic, that those examples are also only used for the duration of (in the case of the roman buildings) -maybe- 1000 years (I doubt even that, and the pyramids where used for even less..probably something like a day or two, concidering they are toombs) wheras we are here talking about a vehicle, that has been used (as far as I understand) for 17000 years?
Going through warzones, maybe even been under fire a multitude of instances, in a harsh enviroment (space is alot harsher then the dessert)... for me it just doesn't seem like one could apply the same rules of usage or "getting worn" on them...

but that was my last little argument :p

You guys are more involved with it then I am, just trying to add a bit more of an argument of how things age and what you guys might want to concider..

[CELS]

The validity of using the pyramids and roman temples (4-6000 year old, a third of the Venturer) as refferences for this thing seem a little out of place-
See many moving parts in those examples?
How about: They fly much?

LoL! This is why I prefer not to use real world examples too much. To be fair, neither pyramids nor cathedrals have much in common with starships from twenty thousand years in the future. But to answer your question....
Have you ever seen Stargate?

The oldest structures we have on earth today are made from rock, not metal. They're found inside atmospheres with humidity, not in deep space. If the Mir space station was a few thousand years old, we'd have a good example. Failing that, we'll have to resort to logic.

A) Most machines today are made to last less than a century. To make a long argument short, the cost and other disadvantages for machines with extremely extended longevity make them less popular.
B) A space ship like the Venturer, unlike most other machines in our world, is so fantastically big and expensive that the price for giving it extended longevity is far more attractive.
C) The more things that can go wrong, the more often things will go wrong. In other words, there are parts of the Venturer that would need frequent maintenance, repair and replacement. How many things can go wrong with an adamantium bulkhead? Short of an asteroid / meteorite collision or battle damage, not much.

Conclusion: The Venturer is likely to have parts with varying degree of 'softness'. The softest parts may require replacement every few decades (delicate wiring, interior inventory, lamps, etc), the hardest parts will last forever unless they take damage from external factors (i.e. adamantium / plasteel bulkheads).
By the way; I'm more than willing to be persuaded that the bulkheads and outer hull would decay after 17,000 years. Due to... whatever. I'm no phycisist. But I'd have to see some sources!

As for the AI... well, I've noticed that the Imperium uses crystals for datastorage. The most famous example being the crystal signet rings from the Gaunt's Ghost series, or perhaps the crystal in the Eisenhorn series containing the personality of a long dead heretic. While contemporary digital storage in real life today has a very limited life expectancy, could the advantage of using crystals (beyond speed, storage capacity and whatever else) also be longevity? Perhaps the data crystals in the Venturer are millennia old? Of course, this is not to say that they're as good as new. One might imagine that computers using ancient data crystals become a bit erratic.

Anyway, I'm still kind of holding my breath in case someone has any ideas beyond how much rust we should paint on the walls or how often the various parts get replaced. See my original post for examples.

[Kage2020]

To suggest that the pyramids, or Roman temples, are stationary objects is, I feel, also a little out of place.  They are constantly moving in the gaseous atmosphere of the world, with all those chemical and physical processes tearing away at their very fabric. (This might be exacerbated depending on which crazy theory you believe!)

How is that different to a "space ship?"

No, it seems that we're talking preferences here.  With that said, I would like to point out that I feel that the ship is very much a Grandfather's Axe...

And crystals?  What is about those, I wonder?  My mind just filled in Superman when thinking about the longevity of crystals...

Than again I've answered the question in the broadest of terms.  The specifics are, however, where the fun might be thought of as being "at."

Kage

[CELS]

I was hoping this thread would lead to something more than broad answers. Brainstorming would be useful. But it's no biggie if people aren't up for it.  <shrugs>

[Da Boss]

To suggest that the pyramids, or Roman temples, are stationary objects is, I feel, also a little out of place.  They are constantly moving in the gaseous atmosphere of the world, with all those chemical and physical processes tearing away at their very fabric. (This might be exacerbated depending on which crazy theory you believe!)
Kage

There is also the problem that most ruins of antquitiy face - which is being canablised for building material  - IIRC pretty much all of the really old buildings have suffered more damage as a result of human intervention than anything else?  I woudl suggest that the amount of human inflcited damage - whether that be intentional canablisation or "repairs" needs to be considered for the ship as well?

Living and working in a 500 year old building, it is suprising how much of it is still original (and also how much of what is thought to be old isn't  )

We know that Imperial technology can last the time talked about - especially if well maintained.

I would think the basic hull will be partially original but with substantial areas of repair (especially due to battle damage or accidents) with the weapons and engines being repalced (perhas a number of times).  The interior would be almost certainly "new" but retaining elements of the old.  Tradition is almost always a given and I would expect that if the Venturer has been in Family ownership for hundred (or more) years is should reflect the underlying taste of the Family (with variaitions for individuals)- as well as having portriture and arefacts/ souveniers /gifts from their travels..............hence my suggestion of a art gallery/ museum in another thread..............

another thought - could the family(or the Captains) be intered in the ship on their death - providing a tangible link to the past and the ship?

[Kage2020]

I was hoping this thread would lead to something more than broad answers. Brainstorming would be useful. But it's no biggie if people aren't up for it.  <shrugs>

Well, to be fair to myself I did give some very specific examples in my first reply to the thread...

We have also previously mentioned that one of the major changes would be in the details... lots of the details.  And that's where it gets difficult to be anything other then broad.  For example, skull/death iconography is common in the Imperial aesthetic, so one imagines that has been brought into the ship, whether it is decorative gargoyles on the bridge, etc.

Or are you after "ghost ship" ideas that we can glean from films such as Mirrors, Ghost Ship and other pulp horror?  (The use of pulp doesn't mean that I don't enjoy those films or I'm being critical...)  It would certainly be interesting to have these as little additions to the overall design...

Kage