[GRT] GURPS Rogue Trader Legiones Astartes

[Kage2020]

Just another heads up for the fun of it.  Since the project started those many moons ago with, for me, the idea that one might be able to draw from various RPG sources to create more detailed information for the Warhammer 40,000 universe (hence world-building, etc.), Games Workshop through Black Industries and now Fantasy Flight Games have released an official 40k RPG.  At the moment it is a two pronged product formed from Dark Heresy (you play Inquisitorial "red shirts" in an combat/investigation horror game) and Rogue Trader (you play "power players" in a combat/exploration adventure game).

On my own behalf, I like to give people options if they don't particularly like the official system, and depending on your preferences in RPGs there is much to dislike. (On the other hand, if you like gamist systems that narratively enforce a very specific modality of play, then there is also much to like!)  As part of this, the Powers of the Mind supplement that I have worked on for ages (since year dot, in various editions/versions) is a lynchpin, but beyond that there are a number of supplements in the works that represent the same kind of focus as the official games.  Some of these are even useful to this project, believe it or not.  

Thus, the Dark Heresy-styled Inquisitorial-focused investigation game is styled Servants of the Imperium, and includes all the juicy information that was absent from the official RPG, including information on how the Imperium is structured, how it "works," the nature of the Inquisition and how that "works," etc.

On the other hand, I'm going to be skipping Rogue Trader.  For the most part that comes down to starship design, which Heimdallr has covered like no-one else's business (there are some tweaks that can be made), and discussion on non-resource limited roleplaying adventures/campaigns.

Thus, the topic of the thread.  I'm skipping over a Rogue Trader variation for no other reason than the forthcoming final capstone to the official RPG trilogy: "Deathwatch," or a game that allows you to play Space Marines.  Long since a munchkin's wet dream, and a topic much maligned by roleplayers as "uninteresting" and "not really worth roleplaying since how much role is actually being played" etc., it's still a central part of the setting that many people are interested in.  So I thought that I would get a head-start on "Deathwatch" with Legiones Astartes.

The primary question for me revolved around the idea that Marines weren't interesting to play.  This is backed up with a context that they are so focused on combat/duty that there is little room for anything else.  A backdrop of that is the traditional argument as to whether Marines are "noble human knights"¹ (basically they're human and feel a sense of duty to humans and the Imperium), or the slightly older version that they are "psychopathic killers"¹ (the Marine is not truly human by dint of their biology, training, and indoctrination whom have a duty to the Emperor).

¹  Please note that these are just generic "peg terms," or something to hang a concept around that is not definitely one or the other, but include a range of variations.  It's just useful not to have to derive your argument from first principles over and over again!

So the question becomes how can one make Marines interesting?  One notably interesting point from Rogue Trader is that it begins to treat the starship--yes, a multi-kilometer long starship--as a "character," but giving it some quirks of personality/history.  Taking that as inspiration, and looking at the wargame itself, one begins to see an avenue of treating power armour and the Marines' relationship to their armour as a variation of "equipment as personality."   That, for me, offers a way of making Marines more interesting--by taking the experience outside of just the head of the Marine, and put it into a relationship with the armour itself.

It remains a very physically, combat focused concept, but the inter-relationship of the Marine and their armour becomes an interesting point of development.  Or, at least, that would seem to be the case

What do this all entail?  Well, just as Rogue Trader is a tad on the simple side to produce, so too is "Deathwatch," or in this case Legiones Astartes.  After a quick write up of history, creation of a Marine etc., it comes to character generation.  That is just a list of implants, a few racial templates/lenses, and some Chapter-based variations, and then you're done.  

So, the relationship with the armour.  This is something that I'm seeing at its heart as a relationship with an Ally that is the Machine Spirit of the armour.  The Machine Spirit can develop over time, becoming its own form of quirky personality that essentially becomes a non-conflicting NPC.  On the other hand, the armour has some basic equipment-like properties (defensive rating, etc.), but over time (history), or through heroic deeds (experience) it is possible to add additional effects/powers to the machine (powers granted by ally/familiar).  

For example, while autosenses are standard equipment for power armour (and represented in a very specific way), "Terror Sight" (milimeter/micrometer radar) is a "power" that can be acquired either by having a historic suit, or in game through honours achieved.  Same with power field upgrades, strength upgrades, etc.

Sure, gives it a bit of a video-gamey feel but I'm not sure that's entirely inappropriate.

Coupled with the standard experience-award for participating in the game and roleplaying, there is also a "Glory" track, that allows you to spend points/XP on certain advantages such as Reputation (amongst Marines), Status, Rank, etc.

For those interested enough to make it to that point, sound interesting enough for a Marine game?


On a background stance, one idea that was thrown up in Dark Reign is that "human" Marines--Marines with human personalities, etc.--are those individuals that players take the role of, and they are those that can go beyond the programming and indoctrination of a Marine, integrating it and becoming more than just a rank-and-file soldier.  I like the idea, but what about you?

Kage

[Totenkopf]

One tricky bit is what kind of games you could run with marine characters. Shooty-whizzbang games against aliens or hordes of traitors is one, but how does one create a more in-depth game. Anyone they question will spill their guts and weep for mercy. Anyone blocking their path becomes plant-food... And a marine is expected to spend the majority of their days in training or prayer. They do not leave their homeplanet/battlebarge except on official business, and although plenty could go on there, it lacks variation.

I'm not saying it's a doomed venture, just very tricky to do well. The ideas you have presented all sound like good ways of spicing it up, and I look forward to seeing this develop.

[Dragon Lord]

I can imagine that if one drew in concepts such as the Dark Angels/the Unforgiven and their hunt for the Fallen, the Grey Knights and the investigation of Daemonic phenomena and indeed the titular Deathwatch and the search for the Xenos and the Xenophile that one can spice things up a bit in terms of making things interesting even as a marine.  For example on of the Fallen would most certainly not spill their guts and weep for mercy under interrogation, and one imagines that it is quite possible that some of the foes a Grey Knight or one of the Deathwatch might come up against would not either.  I can see the Deathwatch being particularly interesting in that sense, indeed perhaps why the forthcoming official title is to be Deathwatch, they have possibly the widest remit in terms of their activities, they would come from many different backgrounds, since if I remember correctly the Deathwatch is drawn from individual marines from all chapters, and they would come up against a great variety of different foes, from a rogue Techpriest working on xenotech to the Eldar.

[Kage2020]

This is what I think of as "safety GMing," or the idea that when I'm writing/creating,there's not point me trying to force another GM or group of players to go in a direction they don't want to go, especially when it comes to the 40k universe.  Indeed, tha't one of the things that I personally consider a bit of weakness of Dark Heresy, even though that's a matter of preference and style as much as anything else--it tells you how to play in the way that it handles some of the game mechanics.

In application to this little supplement, it is more akin to producing the information on how to abstract the Marines, their relationship to their armament, etc.  The rest is left "group" side.  They're the ones that make a decision about what style of game to play, etc.  As soon as you get into trying to codify that into game rules, you begin to almost sermonise.  With the Space Marines, that would be a huge mistake.  

Thus, to be fair, I'm not overtly concerned about designing adventures and campaigns for Marines.  I'll leave that to the people that want to play them.

Kage

[Haarken]

So, the relationship with the armour.  This is something that I'm seeing at its heart as a relationship with an Ally that is the Machine Spirit of the armour.  The Machine Spirit can develop over time, becoming its own form of quirky personality that essentially becomes a non-conflicting NPC.  On the other hand, the armour has some basic equipment-like properties (defensive rating, etc.), but over time (history), or through heroic deeds (experience) it is possible to add additional effects/powers to the machine (powers granted by ally/familiar).

   I really like this approach on how to represent marines, it reminds me of the way that  Dan Abnett represents the interface of the Titan Princeps with the Titan's machine spirit in Titanicus. I imagine that in the beginning when a Marine first earns his power armour he is bonded to a Machine spirit, initially the Marine is able to exert control over the machine spirit and it is his character that dominates but as the Machine spirit and the marine become more familiar with each other the character of the Machine spirit begins to slowly exert it's influence. 

   Coming back to Titanicus one of the concepts that I enjoyed was that of the titan's machine spirit having ghost images of previous Princeps and all the years of experience and conflicting characters that that entailed, I can imagine the Machine spirit of a suit of power armour having something similar to this with the Marine always being in control but not always entirely harmoniously.

On a background stance, one idea that was thrown up in Dark Reign is that "human" Marines--Marines with human personalities, etc.--are those individuals that players take the role of, and they are those that can go beyond the programming and indoctrination of a Marine, integrating it and becoming more than just a rank-and-file soldier.  I like the idea, but what about you?

   I like the idea but then I'm not entirely fond of the idea that marines retain no trace of human personality once they are indoctrinated anyway so for me all marines would have some human personality.

[Kage2020]

I imagine that in the beginning when a Marine first earns his power armour he is bonded to a Machine spirit, initially the Marine is able to exert control over the machine spirit and it is his character that dominates but as the Machine spirit and the marine become more familiar with each other the character of the Machine spirit begins to slowly exert it's influence. 

I hadn't quite articulated in that fashion, but that's definitely food for thought.  Certainly what I was aiming for is to turn the armour into a character as much as possible without going down the Rogue Trooper approach,  i.e. different bits of equipment talking back at the character.

Coming back to Titanicus one of the concepts that I enjoyed was that of the titan's machine spirit having ghost images of previous Princeps and all the years of experience and conflicting characters that that entailed, I can imagine the Machine spirit of a suit of power armour having something similar to this with the Marine always being in control but not always entirely harmoniously.

Ah, a form of psychometric accumulation.  Another thing to consider, but also something that you (the generic you) probably wouldn't want to take too far.

I like the idea but then I'm not entirely fond of the idea that marines retain no trace of human personality once they are indoctrinated anyway so for me all marines would have some human personality.[

It's probably a situation of over-statement on my behalf.  One of the things that many people do is understate the impact of the training/indoctrination process so that they can have "touchy feel-y" Marines that can be related to.  That's one of the reasons that I find the idea posted on Dark Reign to be interesting--it encompasses both approaches in a "believable" way.  Or, at least, a way that is sufficiently in keeping with the conceit of roleplaying games []i]vis-a-vis[/i] the player characters (i.e. that they are "adventurers").

I would imagine that it will be rather fun to have another look at the Marine "racial template," since I'm guessing that PC Marines are going to have to buy off some rather annoying disadvantages.

More on that later.  At the moment I keep on finding things to add to the psyker supplement.

Kage