Re: Space Marine Templates

[Malika]

How do martial arts in general work in the GURPS system? Would they simply be an upgrade to the existing stats or is there also a possibility to create entire different sets of rules for each different type of martial art?

I do agree with Cynr that the role of knife fighting should be looked into, which Marines would probably do a lot when fighting in hand to hand combat, while they might be fully able to rip somebody's head off with their bare hands they would become even more deadly with a weapon since in martial arts the weapon becomes an extension/part of the human body in a certain way.
By the way...is it just me or is the whole "knife dueling" thing very Dune-like? 

As for other martial arts suggestions, I think the Space Marines are more into "practical" martial arts instead of the more "classy" ones, meaning that their way of fighting would more resemble "European" styles of fighting instead of lets say Kung Fu or something. (please don't let me offend anybody with that remark...Im a n00b when it comes to martial arts, only did kendo, judo and karate for a while, but never long enough to fully get into it) But yeah...I don't know if this is possible with GURPS, but a version of Systema (Russian martial art) would in my opinion be very fitting for the Space Marines, but also other elite formation of the Imperial military. That in combination with knife fighting!

[Philip S]

My interpretation would fall more on the lines of Modern Arnis (Filipino Martial Arts) using the combat knife when in power armour. Most of the artwork showing Marines up close and personal usually depict knife fighting (page 4 of the 3rd edition Codex comes to mind).

Some Filipino knife fighting techniques would blend in well with what I am thinking, sharing commonality (in the core of moves) with Wing-Chun and a few of the other touch systems. I think this could be combined with Roman Legionary Gladius stabbing techniques. This can also be combined with western techniques in unarmed combat especially the dirty in close pugilism tricks which basically contains grapple moves which are highly illegal in the modern boxing ring (illegal in UFC).

The argument about "in power armour" is relative. No point in wrestling with a baseline human when you can punch his head off or with a Traitor Marine wear it would take forever to beat your opponent into submission, but what about Tyranids who are supremely melee combatants?

I think the marine in power armour uses it offensively to get in among them.

As for punching to the head, it only really works if you catch the person, this can be done in boxing, or by surprise. Humans are surprising slippy when alert (as in slip punches and role with them), and the marine would have to hit with both weight (which is a given) and hit fast (which may be debatable?). Considering the size this is going to have to be very fast. It will be very hard to actually punch a person's head off, as the speed involved would be great (not a marine would have to actually punch a head off to kill). Most likely the impact will move the target if their weight is not coming forward towards the marine.

I'm not sure a marine could, if relatively 'realistic', take down scores of humans with punches, the humans heads are small and mobile, punching them in the body is a bit of a stoop to a marine. I think they could punch into a general mass of humans and hit them, but it is not specific, and many will just move or be moved. I think the marine could grab and grapple through humans, they only have to catch a limb, shoulder or head and crush, pull in and hammer punch finish (top of the head, they have the height and it would be good and probably get through armour and next guards). More grab and crush (they can crush rocks) and grab and strike (stabilizes the target).

I do agree with Cynr that the role of knife fighting should be looked into, which Marines would probably do a lot when fighting in hand to hand combat, while they might be fully able to rip somebody's head off with their bare hands they would become even more deadly with a weapon since in martial arts the weapon becomes an extension/part of the human body in a certain way.
By the way...is it just me or is the whole "knife dueling" thing very Dune-like? 

I think that's a fair assessment. On my webbie I even have a Gunblade (yeah, too much FF), which I imagine to be used as a Gladius or longknife. Short thrusting stabs, and off arm elbows and shoulder barges in close. I even think the humble bolter, which looks to be heavily armoured, can be used as a very short quarter-staff (eighth-staff?), and make a good ram. Not so much a hitting weapon, but a semi-shield and forward ram. The marine has the buttocks to basically hit a mass of troops and probably plough through them trampling the enemy under foot (and version of Shield wall tactics). With such power and physical advantage opens up options humans don't often have access too.

As for other martial arts suggestions, I think the Space Marines are more into "practical" martial arts instead of the more "classy" ones, meaning that their way of fighting would more resemble "European" styles of fighting instead of lets say Kung Fu or something. (please don't let me offend anybody with that remark...Im a n00b when it comes to martial arts, only did kendo, judo and karate for a while, but never long enough to fully get into it)

In agree, the more flamboyant moves would not be used, and the marine would focus on effectiveness in a confined frontal area with good footwork to make up for the lack of scope. I mentioned some close combat styles from the east, mantis is another, if the armoured cuff is used for the back hand strike, and taking out all the high moves (mantis arm locks are be a problem due to size, so limited to the grabs and crush). I think marines are very much 'western' in many aspects, almost Germanic in combat ethos (there battles tactics still seem to be 'warband' in mind set, looking at Blitzkrieg it like the took the concept of the invincible warrior racing into combat which is a bad idea with machine guns about, added armour and tracks to protect against the guns, and they were aregood to go. A marine is just an upgrade to this concept, and one man APC/ IFV).

But yeah...I don't know if this is possible with GURPS, but a version of Systema (Russian martial art) would in my opinion be very fitting for the Space Marines, but also other elite formation of the Imperial military. That in combination with knife fighting!

I agree, though the full art would be more IG

Philip

PS: I am also thinking of energy conservation: A punch uses up far more energy than a grab, and while a regular human can't crush with a grip a marine can. One quick hand flex and the target is severely injured. Each grab is applied with crushing force that will snap bones (must be had to manipulate all these 'soggy' opponents  ). Power requirements of a hand grab compared to a punch, both can kill, and I suspect the grab is more lethal of the two in most non-optimal situations (and if you can punch it you can grab it). Perhaps as Karate is a place holder for 'strike based' combat that this grab and crush of the marine is included?

[Kage2020]

The difference is simple, you see them as primarily strikers, I see them as grapplers (mostly locks, grabs and breaks). You think my thoughts are without merit, I think yours are OK.

Not without merit, Phil, just with the explanations you've offered they don't seem to stand up to the "flow of combat."

I haven't cracked up a GURPS book in years so I will start with the question... Does it include weapon based art forms?

Well, GURPS Martial Arts does, AFAIK.  I haven't translated over to the fourth edition version of this book since it's not something that I have previously wanted to go into any detail with in terms of the game (though I was tempted to work up some "Aspect Warrior" martial arts using an elemental-flavoured approach).

My interpretation would fall more on the lines of Modern Arnis (Filipino Martial Arts) using the combat knife when in power armour. Most of the artwork showing Marines up close and personal usually depict knife fighting (page 4 of the 3rd edition Codex comes to mind).

One point that Phil raised which is very valid is that Marines quite simply don't need weapons against unarmoured opponents.  The sheer amount of blunt force trauma is enough to shatter bones, etc.

Although, thought there was a reference to wrestling in the Uriel Ventris novels, which makes sense since most of the Ultramarines iconography is Greco Roman in design.

One imagines that Marines are adept in multiple styles of combat, though if one were to ascribe them all the skills that many people do the template would suddenly increase by a few hundred points with all the weapons.  Either that or they become Benedict of Amber.

...but what about Tyranids who are supremely melee combatants?

Then it becomes an issue of speed and efficiency, which means you're back to a predominantly strike-based approach.

How do martial arts in general work in the GURPS system? Would they simply be an upgrade to the existing stats or is there also a possibility to create entire different sets of rules for each different type of martial art?

Each extended martial art is a series of manoeuvres, built to the flavour of the combat form.  In this case, though, I went with "Karate" because of the strike focus and because I didn't want to bother with creating hundreds of different styles.

For example:

Karate (11/16 points)
Primary Skills: Karate Art, Karate, Savoir-Faire (Dojo).
Secondary Skills: Judo, Tournament Law (Karate).
Optional Skills: Theology (Shint); any Kobujutsu weapons.
Maneuvers: Back Kick, Elbow Strike, Hook Kick, Jump Kick, Kicking, Knee Strike, Spin Kick, Stamp Kick.
Cinematic Skills: Breaking Blow, Kiai, Mental Strength, Power Blow, Pressure Points.
Cinematic Maneuvers: None.

Much more complexity and still a fairly simplified representation.  Just for the fun of it, here's Taekwondo (which CELS knows a bit about ) in GURPS Martial Arts:

Taekwondo (14/21 points)
Primary Skills: Jumping, Karate, Karate Sport, Savoir-Faire (Dojo).
Secondary Skills: Acrobatics, Tournament Law (Taekwondo).
Optional Skills: Judo.  Some schools also offer weapons training.
Maneuvers: Axe Kick, Back Kick, Elbow Strike, Hook Kick, Jump Kick [2 points], Kicking [2 points], Spin Kick, Sweeping Kick.
Cinematic Skills: Breaking Blow, Flying Leap, Power Blow.
Cinematic Maneuvers: Acrobatic Kick, Flying Jump Kick [2 points], Roll with Blow.

And since I mentioned it elsewhere:

Hapkido (11/14 points)
Primary Skills: Karate, Judo.
Secondary Skills: Acrobatics, Jumping.
Optional Skills: Language (Korean).
Maneuvers: Back Kick, Hook Kick, Jump Kick, Kicking [2 points], Riposte (Karate), Shuto, Spin Kick, Sweeping Kick.
Cinematic Skills: Flying Leap, Power Blow, Pressure Points.
Cinematic Maneuvers: None.

A lot of complexity for not a lot of come back, since in my estimation (and it is just that; my preference of representation) martial arts are not sufficient a focus of Marines to warrant the use of GURPS Martial Arts in the game.  Of course, this doesn't mean that it could not be explored, but there we go.

As for other martial arts suggestions, I think the Space Marines are more into "practical" martial arts instead of the more "classy" ones, meaning that their way of fighting would more resemble "European" styles of fighting instead of lets say Kung Fu or something.

Perhaps the main difference might be expressed between "jutsu" and "do," or the practical, fighting application and the art form that might accompany it.  The Marines are, quite simply, killers.

In retrospect, and for the sake of completeness, I guess I should add "Judo" on there to represent the grappling aspects as well.  Perhaps at a reduced skill level to reflect that this is not their focus.

Kage

[Philip S]

with the explanations you've offered they don't seem to stand up to the "flow of combat."

Flow would be similar for strike combat using this grapple concept.

Musings
Image a marine is in combat without weapons against a skilled opponent. The closest target area in relation to the arms is the opponent's guard, The Marine ignores the head an body and grabs the guard, in this case the opponent's arms (it could be a spear etc. or any hand weapon held in a guard that is outstretched to the front).

The marine grabs the opponent's arm (snatch, slightly circular punch with open hand), and while most skilled opponent shouldn't have any trouble getting out of a grab, this poor fellow finds the marine is too strong (plus the armoured gauntlets) and they can't twist out of it, the marine's thumb is not weak point in their grip, and the opponent is held fast. (a regular human can use the same tactic but they have to move in while their opponent is defeating their grab, as most human aren't strong enough to maintain an outstretched grab hold around the arm)

The marine crushes the arm in the grab, snapping bones and pulls the (out of range (head/ body)) opponent towards them for a finisher. The marine isn't chasing after their opponents, instead the marines snatch what comes close and drags their opponent to them.

From your striking point of view, and in single combat this is no more difficult that punching at a guard (the most commonly known use I imagine is boxing). Swap the punch impact for an open hand grab. A quick snatch.

In multiple combats, the same thing applies; snatch and pull. The marine draws people to them to be destroyed. This also deals with over-commitment problem as the arm is much faster and quicker to recover than the whole body - a fast deadly opponent (Eldar/ Nid) is going to find it harder to catch the marine over-balanced. I think marines are very good at retaining their balance (for their size they know it would be a weakness) and really over reach or chase their opponents.

As to other techniques to speed up the butchery, a marine could literally grab and arm, force the person down and knee them in the face and body (about the right (optimal) height considering the difference in size). A bit comical imagining them 'matching' through a crowd like this, but considering their armour it wouldn't be a problem. Using one arm means they can still hold their weapon.

This grab and pull would, as I mentioned earlier, defeat many conventional hand weapons; from two handed swords  (with guards such of the plough or ox) and spears, to single handed weapons and shields. It is the marines grip that is deadly, and just like a gauntlet they can grab a live blade and not care. The can use one arm to deflect high one handed mace blows and the other to grab their shield and pull the bearer down. Marines are hand fighters, and this is how I imagine the Techno-Barbarians (make me think of techno music and them all at a rave) of ancient Terra used to fight with their powered torsos. the forerunner of Mark 1 Thunder Amrour used by the first marines. A legacy I image would carry over to current marine close combat.

In general terms the snatch and grab means no second chances for the opponent to recover. I see means as being all about the business and they wouldn't waste their strength advantage in combat. It also allows them to grab weapons and turn them on the bearer, in many ways marines don't need to carry hand weapons into combat because the enemy will supply the levers (weapon) of their own destruction. A weapon is just a way for a marine to get to a person quicker (if the opponent is stupid enough to hang on). Kind like combat fishing 

I think it is very interesting inventing combat arts for the marine. I believe it's a good idea to draw inspiration from many of the current arts, but not limited by them - but think of the possibilities!

Philip

PS: I tried to add more quantifiers, and be more descriptive - does it help?

[Kage2020]

PS: I tried to add more quantifiers, and be more descriptive - does it help?

In my mind it illustrates the 'creative agenda,' indicating that medieval combat is a dominating image to your approach to "Marine combat."  This is, of course, a part of what one might consider a "standard" approach to the 40k universe (i.e. derivative of Warhammer Fantasy Battle), but I remain sceptical.

Of course, if that's what does it for you with Marine combat, then cool enough.

Image a marine is in combat without weapons against a skilled opponent. The closest target area in relation to the arms is the opponent's guard, The Marine ignores the head an body and grabs the guard, in this case the opponent's arms (it could be a spear etc. or any hand weapon held in a guard that is outstretched to the front).

Erm, or he could strike the arms, likely breaking them in the process.  Opponent is out of the conflict.

Of course, if you're trying to engage a Marine in combat with primitive weaponry?  More fool you.

Swap the punch impact for an open hand grab. A quick snatch.

Just a quick reminder that I'm fully capable of envisioning this.

With the grab you've probably increased the attack time by a factor of 3-4.  While it can definitely remove the combatant from the melee, you could have achieved the same (as a Marine in power armour) with less effort.

As to other techniques to speed up the butchery, a marine could literally grab and arm, force the person down and knee them in the face and body (about the right (optimal) height considering the difference in size).

Erm, why would they even bother?  Even if you went with the grappling imagery, most people - even skilled opponents - are not going to be able to carry on in combat with fractures to their limbs.  I know I would probably be crying like a small child on the floor wondering why the hell I had decided it was a good idea to engage a 7' armoured monstrosity with my bare hands or, even, primitive weaponry.

This remains the problem -- grappling is ever going to be slower and, of course, question the nature of the combat in question.

I think it is very interesting inventing combat arts for the marine.

Outside of the scope of the template, hence the split of topics, but definitely intereseting.

Kage

[Philip S]

PS: I tried to add more quantifiers, and be more descriptive - does it help?

In my mind it illustrates the 'creative agenda,' indicating that medieval combat is a dominating image to your approach to "Marine combat."  This is, of course, a part of what one might consider a "standard" approach to the 40k universe (i.e. derivative of Warhammer Fantasy Battle), but I remain sceptical.

In the medieval times they were very good at combat, it's nothing like Hollywood's representation (I'm far more of the Arma point of view). However, I consider of a few Asian arts in their too (as I have mentioned, mind you they are practically 'medieval'). I am looking at the action instead of the era. There are some similarities to knights and marines, in that they are immune to the missile weapons of the day. I do want to include some form of APC/ IFV thinking, and Blitzkrieg tactics in buildings. There differences in what each is capable off, I don't think marines are 'knights' or fulfil the same role as knights on the battle field.

I think it would be wrong to discount medieval technique and thoughts, but I have no problem dumping the often erroneous image of the medieval period.

Image a marine is in combat without weapons against a skilled opponent. The closest target area in relation to the arms is the opponent's guard, The Marine ignores the head an body and grabs the guard, in this case the opponent's arms (it could be a spear etc. or any hand weapon held in a guard that is outstretched to the front).

Erm, or he could strike the arms, likely breaking them in the process.  Opponent is out of the conflict.

Indeed they could, but the opponent is over there *points finger* and is probably still concious. But grabbing and crushing the marine has a hold of them. It's quicker for the marine to contract their arm and pull the person to them than moving their whole body to chase after them (less energy too).

In fact a marine is so massive they could probably grab and over balance the opponent, quickly pull them in and down (hand pulled to hip), and use their chest plate as an impact surface (chest barge).

Swap the punch impact for an open hand grab. A quick snatch.

Just a quick reminder that I'm fully capable of envisioning this.

I'm writing to be inclusive, as I usually try to do, so everyone can follow. Others have joined the debate.

This remains the problem -- grappling is ever going to be slower and, of course, question the nature of the combat in question.

Depends of the type of combat. The grapples I'm describing are quick, an if we consider the whole and time to make up distance form starting point outside reach etc. it seems to be just as fast from start to finish (I'm trying to think like a marine). Perhaps I should refer to this as 'grab with crush and smash' instead of grapple, seeing as we look at grapple and wrestle in differing ways, and which bits we are talking about (so very easy to assume that others know and share what you mean!)

Grab with crush and smash gives the marines a rather matter of fact feel to them. nothing fancy, simple work: very Roman in execution. It gives a reason for their massive size and the reason they don't need to carry weapons (and a reason their techno-barbarian ancestors also engaged in grapples, er, grab with crush and smash techniques  )

Philip

[Kage2020]

In the medieval times they were very good at combat, it's nothing like Hollywood's representation...

Aye, I know.  With that said I'm not basing my contributions to this discussion on Hollywoodisms.

There are some similarities to knights and marines, in that they are immune to the missile weapons of the day.

Except when they were not.  Darn those English longbow wielders.  Of course, this is just pendantry over what is otherwise a fair and reasonable point, i..e the functional immunity of the Marine in their power armour.  We're going to keep on coming back to this immunity, that and of course the idea that it is a bit more than just armour...

I think it would be wrong to discount medieval technique and thoughts, but I have no problem dumping the often erroneous image of the medieval period.

Hmmn... I'll give that this might be true.  With that said, I have yet to see it being overtly relevant to the discussion as it stands now.  (Not withstanding that some of the mentality of the period might be very relevant.)

Indeed they could, but the opponent is over there *points finger* and is probably still concious. But grabbing and crushing the marine has a hold of them. It's quicker for the marine to contract their arm and pull the person to them than moving their whole body to chase after them (less energy too).

If they are not within range, then they are not an immediate threat in terms of melee combat.  They are, in essence, removed from that range of combat, coming into the realm of, erm, ranged combat.

In fact a marine is so massive they could probably grab and over balance the opponent, quickly pull them in and down (hand pulled to hip), and use their chest plate as an impact surface (chest barge).

That's true, but again... why would they want to?

In fact, a lot of what you're saying is true given the assumption that the Marine wants to grapple.

I'm writing to be inclusive, as I usually try to do, so everyone can follow. Others have joined the debate.

Fair enough. 

The grapples I'm describing are quick, an if we consider the whole and time to make up distance form starting point outside reach etc.

While there are different speeds to grapples, the simple fact that it involves multiple movements will mean that they are always going to be slower than a strike.  Each a "grab with crush" is going to be slower than a strike since, obviously, it involves the same motion as a strike (extend), but also includes a slow down (ish), grasp, and flex/crush.  For anyone who has tried to use "grappling" in combat the distinction is rather obvious, especially from the stance of an attacker. 

A Marine can achieve similar trauma through a strike, though with the grapple the probability of a communited fracture (read: multiple fractures in the same location).

Grab with crush and smash gives the marines a rather matter of fact feel to them. nothing fancy, simple work: very Roman in execution. It gives a reason for their massive size and the reason they don't need to carry weapons (and a reason their techno-barbarian ancestors also engaged in grapples, er, grab with crush and smash techniques  )

Erm, but they don't even need the "grab" component.  Thus, K.I.S.S.

Kage

[Philip S]

I thought I was 'K.I.S.S' in this discussion. As a note (not saying you don't get this)  I count more than one  range, range to outer guard (their arms and legs) and range to body are two. it is quicker to get to their arms (and gain control) than going directly for the head and body - based on the simple principle of destroy their defences. This means 'out of range' is relative to which bit I'm talking about (it doesn't always mean 'out of close combat range')

With the marine, I would image that they would figure that if they struck a blow straight of the bat to the head or body of a target there is a good change of missing a ready opponent. They would figure that the arms and guard are easier to get to, but a strike may not break the arms but move the person. I think this strike has a better chance if the person is less mobile and in formation (like in a shield wall). However the marine knows he could grab the guard (arm) with relative ease, it's closer than the head or body, and once grabbed they have a 'pit bull' of all grips. There are no second chances when a marine makes the grab. No getting away.

I figure this grab and crush, and that would be an instantaneous grab and crush in one motion (would take guard down and crush while in contact in the take down of the guard, and in comparison to the punch; the time it takes a punch to return to guard would be ample for the marine to squeeze and pop bones), is more for open and mobile combatants (melee), or people the marine just needs to kill and how they go about it when they do not have a weapon.

I'm looking at is a probability of landing a strike, and minimising waste. In my mind they are not so much a fighter, or a warrior, they are an executioner. They don't have time to 'play', they is no status combat, no ego, just pure brutality.

Another thing I wish to discuss it power - a punch is going to use a lot of power shifting those shoulder plates about, all that acceleration etc. whereas this grab and crush is quite economical, does over reach, limited in movement, and the power to crush an opponent's arm with their powered gauntlets is likely to be far less that that need to make a decent impact that can break bone (will need a lot of speed for that and that means power).

I have no idea to translate this in GURPS, looking at the martial arts snippets you posted most could be binned. Perhaps a 'punch' with the added bonus of ending in an immobilization of the opponent's guard and automatic disablement. I do not know it GURPS has reach rules, but if they do then the reach of this attack is greater than a punch to the head as it only has to get to the guard. Save about a foot (or two - depending on the person's guard). Allows marines to engage at great range and be effective straight away.

Philip

PS: Some repeating of myself but I'm trying to keep it in context. An yes, I know you can follow it! 

[Kage2020]

I thought I was 'K.I.S.S' in this discussion.

LOL.  From a martial arts perspective, not quite.

As a note (not saying you don't get this)  I count more than one  range, range to outer guard (their arms and legs) and range to body are two.

While the 'ranges' can be split up as many times as you might want, it should be made clear that when dealing with a Marine in AAPA, the "target" isn't just the body/head, but rather the arms of the 'guard.'   Or anything within range, for that matter.

I think this strike has a better chance if the person is less mobile and in formation (like in a shield wall).

This is, of course, correct.  However, it's also one that seems to be based upon a false premise -- that a Marine needs to grapple.  This seems to be erroneous, since a strike by a Marine against any part of the body is not only quicker, but also far more damaging than another opponent type.  On average we're talking instant incapacitation of the limb in question. 

Sound harsh?  Perhaps.  But we are, after all, talking about someone taking on a Marine in melee combat without any form of augmentation.  Idiots.

I figure this grab and crush, and that would be an instantaneous grab and crush in one motion (would take guard down and crush while in contact in the take down of the guard, and in comparison to the punch; the time it takes a punch to return to guard would be ample for the marine to squeeze and pop bones)...

Erm, you're now defining a grab as being instantaneous?  Since a strike will take less time, does that mean it will travel back in time?

I'm looking at is a probability of landing a strike, and minimising waste. In my mind they are not so much a fighter, or a warrior, they are an executioner. They don't have time to 'play', they is no status combat, no ego, just pure brutality.

Strangely enough, I agree with this premise.  With that said, as above, I continue to disagree with your argument. 

While it might work from a gaming perspective, it doesn't match up with how these things tend to work in actual combat.

Another thing I wish to discuss it power - a punch is going to use a lot of power shifting those shoulder plates about, all that acceleration etc. whereas this grab and crush is quite economical...

Remembering, of course, that this is the same power armour that is "powered" so as to remove any form of encumbrance associated with its wearing?  While one can argue from a momentum stand point, still it doesn't quite work.

I have no idea to translate this in GURPS, looking at the martial arts snippets you posted most could be binned.

They are most definitely an abstraction.  You would have to see the rest of the book to be able to definitively make that statement, though.  Of those systems that have incorporated martial arts, GURPS offers the most developed that I have seen.

Perhaps a 'punch' with the added bonus of ending in an immobilization of the opponent's guard and automatic disablement.

You are not talking about stacking maneuvers, which is something entirely different and yet another reason that I didn't want to get into the complexity of using GURPS Martial Arts.

Allows marines to engage at great range and be effective straight away.

If the Marine can reach their opponent, they can incapacitate.  If they cannot, then they're out of reach and within reach of another armament, such as "sword" or "gun."

Kage

[Philip S]

However, it's also one that seems to be based upon a false premise -- that a Marine needs to grapple.

Chooses.

This seems to be erroneous, since a strike by a Marine against any part of the body is not only quicker, but also far more damaging than another opponent type.  On average we're talking instant incapacitation of the limb in question.

So a punch from a marine will disable a arm in a flexible guard? I think it is going to move the person. I also have a feeling that a punch from a marine, while power is often against someone backing off, and is going to be far less damaging (I'm assuming people aren't suicidal)

I figure this grab and crush, and that would be an instantaneous grab and crush in one motion (would take guard down and crush while in contact in the take down of the guard, and in comparison to the punch; the time it takes a punch to return to guard would be ample for the marine to squeeze and pop bones)...

Erm, you're now defining a grab as being instantaneous?

Nope. The crush effect of the grab happen together. Poor use of words on my part? Simultaneous. The idea is; that the time from when the grab makes contact and the marine starts to squeeze to crush the arm, would be no loner than it takes for the extended punch to return. Hence I was disputing that a grab and crush is slower than a punch (as punch to impact is only half the punch).

I think they would be the same speed, except with the grab the 'punch' returns holding a (crushed) arm (and attached person). That's how fast I'm thinking this is.

While it might work from a gaming perspective, it doesn't match up with how these things tend to work in actual combat.

In deed, how many marines have you met? As for the technique base it's inspired by reality.

I love chatting about this stuff, one of the reasons for WarSpike! I think people have some very strange views about combat (besides; great games make great minds).

All in all the idea of this marine unarmed combat vs unarmed humans seems silly, as the marine is obviously going to win. So I'm looking at how they effectively catch and kill (I already assume a human isn't really going to be so stupid as to punch a marine!). In some ways it's like the medieval knight using a longsword against peasants: the knight will win. A knight should be able to take on four or five peasants with ease. That longsword blade edge is for the peasants and lower classes not for other knights. No knight would never hew and another knight in full plate armour with their blade (morte-striking or half-swording would be used, and techniques which have more in common with quarter-staff, and grappling at the sword).

Again, I not saying a marine is a knight, I'm making the point that a knight has to deal with far lower power enemies and slay them quickly. This is roughly analogous to the marine taking on regular humans. I think a marine will have techniques that allows him to kill humans who really don't want to be there. However, I am assuming the marines are not as strong and as quick as I usually think they are. I'm thinking 400lbs man in US army inspired power armour.

The reason I am thinking more about how they fight is because it can be scaled to other combat scenarios where they are unarmed. I mentioned regular humans armed with conventional hand weapons, but then we can get onto Nids and Eldar, and power weapons (roll blade on the forearms using the thickness of the armour as a buffer - slide in a finish?). Finally marine vs (chaos) marine in the manner of the old techno-barbarians.

This I suppose is outside the scope of the GURPS system, but I'm thinking about it (for another system ).

Anyway, I hope that explains what I was getting at.

Philip

[Kage2020]

Chooses.

In that case, the Marine with all their combat experience is going to realise that the grapple is going to be remarkably less efficient (in most circumstances) and would therefore choose to strike.  We're going round in circles here, Phil.  You've talked about how difficult it is to heat the head, etc., but have you ever tried to grapple someone in a combat situation?  It's like trying to kick a male in the groin -- if they're expecting combat, it's amazingly hard to do.  As soon as you have a remotely competent fighter in that kind of grapple, they begin to change the dynamic of combat, moving around and within guards to release, counter grapple or whatever.  (I'm thinking Chin Na at the moment, since that's pretty funky in turning strikes and more importantly blocks to strikes into grapples, far more so than Wing Chun... In my experience, of course.)

Of course, most of this is moot.  The ability of the Marine to be able to cause simple to communited fractures by crushing will marginalise the ability of the target to counter, but then again they could create similar damage with a strike, which serves to avoid binding the Marine into a more static style, but takes less time.  While you can argue dynamic guards ("they'll be running away anyway" type comments), it begins to beggar disbelief.  (And, remember, there are some martial arts whose central premise is not to, erm, attack the centre.  Consider escrimma which focuses upon the appendicular body, reducing the ability of the individual to react.

Again, though, this is all fairly redundant.  A Marine in AAPA is, for all intents and purposes, a tank.  Striking is more efficient, Phil, especially when you're thinking about a tank that is five times stronger than the average human.  That doesn't mean grappling cannot be 'elegant,' but this is not the dynamic sphere, nor is it Steven Seagal or even Jet Li.  Just as you are not suggesting that they reach out, grab someone, crush their arms, then crush them against their chest, then knee them in the face, then stomp on the remains, so the strike-focused approach is not suggesting that they are flailing around like a whirling dervish.

What has been discussed here is non-equal combat that is not directly analogous to medieval knightly combat, not even by a long stretch.  This is melee, and a mass one at that.  The Marine is vastly superior in terms of strength, defensive ability and, well, nigh on everything.  If you were going to make an analogy to a medieval knight, they're in full plate armour, on a fully trained destrier (also fully armoured in barding), and they're laying the smack down on the peasant militia.  Except the night is as strong as a horse, and that every kick from the horse is as damaging as strike from the knight, and no one is dragging peasants off the ground to crush them.  There simply is no need.

This is combat, not the mook fight in Blade 2.

Hence I was disputing that a grab and crush is slower than a punch (as punch to impact is only half the punch).

A grab and a crush is not going to be simultaneous.  Guestimate would be that grab-crush would be about 20% slower than the strike.  While you could say that the strike has to return, that would be an assumption, since with the Marine strength and momentum, that's going to be fairly redundant.

That's how fast I'm thinking this is.

Dragging 150-250lbs of mass towards you is still going to throw you off-balance.  Sure, having the Marine in the armour compensates for some of it, but still... When you don't even need to?

In deed, how many marines have you met?

That's reaching, Phil.  The last time I heard that used in an argubate it was in the film Two Weeks Notice:

Female Lead: You are the most annoying man in the world!
Male Lead: That's hardly fair... do you know every man in the world?

As for the technique base it's inspired by reality.

Yes, I know.  In this case, though, perhaps not by the context.

All in all the idea of this marine unarmed combat vs unarmed humans seems silly, as the marine is obviously going to win.

I think that this has been somewhat obvious from the start, or at least if not win then cause some severe damage.  It is one of the reasons for the several statements of a strike-based focus to this kind of mass melee.

So I'm looking at how they effectively catch and kill...

So now "catch" is a prerequisite before "kill," or even just incapacitate?

No knight would never hew and another knight in full plate armour with their blade (morte-striking or half-swording would be used, and techniques which have more in common with quarter-staff, and grappling at the sword).

In this case, unless you happen to believe in the Space Marine Plasma First of Death, melee combat for powered armoured opponents is going to be a fairly redundant premise unless some form of technology is brought in.  Again, though, this is somewhat obvious from the start.

This is roughly analogous to the marine taking on regular humans.

Erm, nope.  Not really.

...but then we can get onto Nids and Eldar, and power weapons (roll blade on the forearms using the thickness of the armour as a buffer - slide in a finish?).

It's not hard to do.

Finally marine vs (chaos) marine in the manner of the old techno-barbarians.

Erm... no.

This I suppose is outside the scope of the GURPS system, but I'm thinking about it (for another system ).

No, no it's not.  Not in the slightest.

Kage

[Philip S]

This is going nowhere. It seems I am unable to impart my concepts to you.

I'll PM you.

Philip

[Kage2020]

Phil... Isn't it entirely possible that, as expressed above, I just don't agree with you?  For whatever reason, whether it is preference or (not un-substantial) experience, I see it working in another way?  That I can understand what you're getting at, perhaps even imagine the flow of combat a bit better than you (perhaps, not necessarily), but I just come to a completely different end-result?

Sorry, that's a cry from the heart practically, but there is a great deal of difference between not agreeing and not being able to understand (or for you to express).  Lack of agreement =/= lack of understanding.

I shall await your PM.

Sorry I missed this, Apocalypse.

Hm, 400 lbs?  Thats not even 200 kg. I would have guessed more in the range of 600 lbs. I mean - there are existing human footballplayers which weigh more then 400 - and they probably have a lot less bones and muscle then your average Space Marine.

Please remember that it was a knee jerk figure.  Even so, I don't see a reason to substantially increase it to much over 450-500, perhaps a tad more.  Sure, you can pull out extreme examples of football players, but why must Marines be considered better/heavier/whatever than everything else?  The times that I have seen people cite the maximum human rage of weight lifting and then just arbitrarily increased it and said, "Well, a Marine can lift more because, well... he's a Marine."

Again, taking the human extremes and expanding it seems to make less sense than taking "reasonable" (always a judgement call) values and extending them reasonably.  Does this mean that somebody who is genetically predisposed and who has spent their entire life training might be able to out lift a Marine?   Sure, it might.  The advantage of a Marine is they get everything in this (not so) iddy-biddy little Mariner-shaped package.

Marines are superhuman, not preternatural.

Sorry if that sounds like I'm setting my heels in for a tug-o-war, but extensioin from extreme values coupled with the intangible "'cos they're Marines and they're 'ard" factor just... Well, doesn't sit right.  It's Princess on fifteen thousand peas through only a single mattress time, here...

No problems with reasonable revisions, but the nebulous "Marine factor" increasing weights to huge proportions?  I'm not going to go down that route.  This is Kage-marine, not Phil-Marine.  While it might get associated with Anargo-Marine...?  Ah, I don't know.

Kage

[Philip S]

Phil... Isn't it entirely possible that, as expressed above, I just don't agree with you?  For whatever reason, whether it is preference or (not un-substantial) experience, I see it working in another way?  That I can understand what you're getting at, perhaps even imagine the flow of combat a bit better than you (perhaps, not necessarily), but I just come to a completely different end-result?

Yes it's possible.

I wasn't explaining to educate, but to put across my thoughts. To share. If was an interesting conversation.

Sorry, that's a cry from the heart practically, but there is a great deal of difference between not agreeing and not being able to understand (or for you to express).  Lack of agreement =/= lack of understanding.

As I said in the beginning, we do not agree. It's no big deal.

Philip

[Kage2020]

In that case, it seems that this particularly thread has ended, if somewhat unsatisfactorily outside of the process of discussion itself.

Kage